Endtimes Conference Proves Post-Trib Rapture


      The Bible verses used to prove the "Pre-Trib" Rapture,
                  instead  proves this event to be false at  ...


       ... this  Calvary  Chapel  Men's  Conference  on March the 
3rd,
held at Little Country Church in Redding, California, and attended  by 800 + men.  Here, the  Pre -Tribulation  Rapture  was  taught   where  (they claim)  all Christians  are removed from the earth  seven years prior  to  the  true  Second Coming of Christ  that clearly takes place after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-26). So, the aforementioned  pre-trib event would involve manifest contradiction- Two Second Comings?  

                                    (place cursor on above verse, and verses through-out)


Furthermore,  there is not a scripture in the entire Bible that states
Christians are removed  before the tribulation. This  extra event  is
documented to have begun in the 1830s (we cover this later). So, in
the 1800 years  prior to this time were all of the great church fathers
such as: (see quotes by) Justin Martyr (98-167),Tertullian (150-220)  Cyprian (201-258)   Augustine (354-430), etc.... Not smart enough to figure out  that the church would  not  be on the earth to face the Antichristbut instead be taken out in a pre-trib rapture... Not smart enough? ....  for 1800 years?


       Also consider
: 
We are specifically told in II Thes.2:3-4 KJV, 
       that the false christ comes first.  (Place cursor on verse)



The three senior pastors  that spoke at this  Endtime Conference
used  nine  scriptures  to prove the  pre-trib  rapture.   However,
out of the nine they used, seven were taken out of context,  and
the other two were based on assumptions............ Below are the  
 Nine scriptures  they thought were the best to support their view, 
and below each a brief explanation, with scripture reference, that
show they were twisted to fit the false  pre-trib  theory. We have
listed them in the exact same order they were presented that day:


                    1  of  9 ...I Corinthians 15:51-52


51"Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, 
at the  last trump;  for the trumpet shall sound,  and the  dead       
shall  be  raised  incorruptible, and  we  shall  be  changed."

Read verse 52 in the above very slowly, think about the order
(sequence) God inspired Paul to list these  three events:


1 __At the  last trump  (i.e., the 7th). 

2 __The  dead shall be raised   (first Resurrection).


3 __And we shall be changed   (raptured).


So, does the Bible tell us when the resurrection will take place?
Yes! Jesus Himself tells us in John 6:40, and John 6:44, that the
 Resurrection  is on the Last day  (see also John 11:24). So, if
the Resurrection is on the Last Day, as stated by Jesus,  and in
I Cor.15:52,  Paul  lists  the  Rapture  after  the  Resurrection
Paul  has  told  us  the  "sequence" of these 3 events and Jesus
told us "when".... On the  Last Day! ....          Note #1----->


....Is this such a difficult concept to comprehend? Clearly, these
two verses teach a Post-Tribulation Rapture  at the Second
Coming of ChristHow can the  Last Trumpet sound__then
the__Resurrection of the dead (in Christ), and the__Rapture,
all take place  seven  years __before__ the Last Day?



                    2  of  9
 ...
 I Thessalonians 4:16


"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,  and with the trump  of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

Again the word  "trump"  is used,  but the Thessalonians  were
unclear as to "when" this would happen. Paul apparently heard
that they were troubled about this, so he then wrote a  second
letter to clear this up, and this reads as follows:


II Thessalonians 2:1-4, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,  and our
gathering
together (
i.e. rapture) unto him,         2   That ye be not soon
shaken in mind,_or be troubled,_neither by spirit,_or by word,
nor by letter from us, _as that the _day of Christ_ is at hand.
 3  Let no man_deceive you_by any means:   for__ that
day
shall not come_
except there come a *falling away  first, and
that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" ( false christ).


*Falling away,  
is #646  "APOSTASIA"  in the Strong's  (Greek)
 Concordance, and translates "Defection from the truth, apostasy."




In this  second letter Paul, this time  makes it  very clear that
the false christ comes first and, (v-3) not to let anyone deceive
you. Then, referring back to the first letter he wrote,"Then (after
the false Christ)  the Lord descends,  with a shout,  with the voice
of the arch angel, with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise  first."  This  is  the second coming of Christ,  after the
tribulation. So, with this  second letter  Paul is making it clear
that this trump is not  before  the tribulation it's after.  It's a
post-trib rapture, at the Last Trump, on the  Last Day!



                    3  of  9 ...
 Revelation 3:10


"Because thou has kept the word of my patience,   I also  will
keep thee from the hour of temptation, that shall come upon
all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth."



Notice that Jesus says, "....I will keep thee from...." He does
not say, "...take thee out of..."  So, for a better understanding
of  Rev.3:10 KJV, Let's prove the Bible, with the Bible, and not
assume anything._ Let's let Jesus clarify this verse, which He
does in John 17:15 KJV, "I pray not that thou take them out of
the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil." 


Jesus  clearly says___not  to take them out__in John 17:15.
So, how can the__I will keep thee from__in Rev.3:10__mean
"I will take thee out of ?"  


(The Greek interpretation of "Keep thee  from"    Note #3--->


God's wrath does not fall on us,"only those who have the mark
of the beast" (Rev 16:2). And those who  "do not have the seal
of God" (Rev 9:4). Like the "144 thousand" of Rev. 7:3, we have
the seal of God._ See Eph.1:13 "...after you believed, you were
sealed......" And Eph.4:30 "......you are sealed unto the day of
redemption." There are several verses that clearly state, after we
accept Christ, we are sealed, (protected from God's wrath).




                    4  of  9 ...
 Matthew 24:27


"For as the lighting cometh out of the east,  and shineth even
unto the west; so shall also the coming of the son of man be."
 



Go down two verses,  Matt.24:29 tells you  "when"  this will  be:
"Immediately__ after the tribulation__ of those days..."  Now
Matt.24:30 "...then shall appear the sign of the son of man..."
Now, Matt.24:31, "...with the great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall gather together (
rapture) his elect......"    Again the

same trumpet as in other verses, now back to Matt.24:26, Jesus
tells them not to believe people that tell you that He  (Jesus)  is
in a secret place (like a secret pre-trib rapture). So, the above
verse... Matt.24:27,  as you can see, was clearly taken out of
the context of the scriptures before and after this verse.



                    5  of  9 ... Matthew 25:1-13


The parable of the "ten virgins" ___ Here  Jesus  does not
talk about the "time" of His return,  because He had just told
them a few minutes before about the time, (see the paragraph
before this one Matt.24:29 definitely after the tribulation).
The Wedding Feast can only take place after the tribulation,
because the Resurrection doesn't happen until the Last day.
Jesus said three times that the Resurrection is on the Last
Day (John 6:40,  44,  54). _ Then the bridegroom  (Jesus)
goes into the wedding feast after the second coming of Christ,
and guess who else is at this Wedding Feast?       1   The Old
Testament saints.    2  The tribulation saints.    3  The prophets.
 4  The 144 thousand new Christians.    There would have to be
two wedding feasts__two resurrections__two second comings,
and two Last Days, for the "pre-trib" to work.     Note #4--->



                    6  of  9 ...
 Mark 13:6-37


In this entire chapter  Jesus is talking about  the events  that
happen during the tribulation,  and that they were   not   to
look for Him until   after   certain events happen,  then in
Mark 13:24-27,  "...after  the tribulation of those days,
then they shall see Him.."
 So Jesus again told them He's

coming back  after  the tribulation,  making this a  post
tribulation rapture
at the Second Coming of Christ.




                    7  of  9 ...
 
Luke 21:6-38


Basically  this chapter is the same  as the above chapter,  where
Jesus returns_after_the tribulation,  at the  second coming of
Christ,  except in v-36,  He says, "....pray that you be accounted
worthy to escape all these things...
" What things? All 21 plagues

that God uses to punish evil men; "...men which had the mark of
the beast..
"(Rev.16:2), and "..
those men which have not the seal
of God...
" (Rev.9:4). What makes us worthy to escape all these

things?  Accepting the  Lord Jesus Christ  as our Saviour, and
being an overcomer, which includes_not_taking_the mark of the
beast. So, we will escape all these things,  because we  have the
seal of God  (Eph.1:13, Eph.4:30,  II Cor 1:22, and John 6:27).
We are
protected from God's wrath,  like the 144000  (Rev.7:4).

Greek rendering of "escape" put in the proper context. Note #5-->



                    8  of  9 ...
 
II Peter 3:10


"...The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night."

Now let's let the Bible prove the Bible and go to I Thes. 5:2, where
the exact same words are used, "..the Day of the Lord so cometh
as a thief in the night."
 Then in I Thes.5:4,  (paraphrased)  "But

[we] are not in darkness that this day should overtake [us] as
a thief.
"  Why? Because I Thes.5:5,  "...[we]
  are children of the
light.
" So, we will know!   (I inserted "we"  for "you"  
because
Peter and Paul's letters were to the Gentiles (non Jews_"us").




                    9  of  9 ...
 
Revelation 22:12 (KJV)


"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me..."

"So, when does He give out rewards?  See Rev.11:15 and 18 
"And the 7th angel sounded..[its time]..that thou give rewards
..unto the saints
..."_It's after the 7th trump!!__At the end!

Rewards are given out  after  the post-trib resurrection/
rapture, after the Second Coming of Christ.


Now, the nine verse references listed above_was all that was
presented to prove the "Pre-Trib" rapture by the three pastors at
this conference. You can see that they were all taken out of
context, or based on assumptions, because all nine clearly support  the post-tribulation view instead. I believe  this new
(1830's) pre-trib doctrine was built on fear; not trusting that
God will carry them through this time when the church will
be needed the most.... 


                             Giants in the Land....


......God was angry with the 10 spies, who made Israel fear
the 
Giants in the land God promised to t
hem, (Num.13:1-2),
and  they were afraid  to go in,  (Num.13:31 KJV) 
and
(Num.13:33 KJV).  
We are doing the same thing today by

fearing  the  "Giant" (Antichrist)  we add  "pre-trib"  to
God's word, without a single verse to prove it, this is very
dangerous,  (see Rev. 22:18).  It is not  my intent to belittle
these three pastors, I'm sure they are sincere Christians, but
if they can't come up with one single verse that  specifically
places this event before the tribulation, who can? Note #6--->



It's really very simple, if it's not in God's Word, it's not going to
happen. Again, I want to repeat that these nine scriptures was
all that was used to prove the "pre-trib" rapture that day, I was
there! The senior pastor of this large church has read this article,
and we exchanged a few Emails, and he did not question that
these were the scriptures that were used. He believes that he is
teaching the truth, and so do I... One of us is wrong, but we are
still Christian brothers.



                                      Left Behind...


Some may ask: What difference does it make if Christ returns
before the tribulation, or after?_ There are sincere Christians on
both sides. However, the Bible says in I Thes.5:21, to "prove all
things."_And in II Tim.4:4,"And they shall turn away their ears
from the truth, and shall be turned into fables" (fiction). We see
this in the  "Left Behind"  book and movie, with cars and planes
crashing, etc. Millions are killed before the tribulation even starts,
when all these people still have/had a chance to be saved during
this time. The reality is the truth was  'Left Behind' in the making
of this movie! Yet it sells well in the religious marketplaces.  The
Pre Tribulation Rapture doctrine has become amusement for the
masses, a multi billion dollar business.                 
Note #7---->

Update on the above "Left Behind" topic as of  4/22/2016:

Kirk Cameron,  the star of this movie  has changed  to  the
Post-Trib rapture, and now preaches  against  the Pre-trib. 
He states: "The pre-trib rapture is a total hoax and a fraud."
And he turned down a role in a new  "Left Behind"  sequel...

(Just Google  "Kirk Cameron, Post-Trib Rapture")



Note:
The "pre-trib" view is a relatively new doctrine, you won't
find pre-trib writings or documents in any church history until
about the year 1830. Edward Irving, (Catholic Apostolic Church)
and soon after, John Darby, (Plymouth Brethren) both of England,
were teaching the pre-tribulation rapture. _However, the most
important reason for the acceptance of this "pre-trib" rapture
view in the United States was the Scofield Reference Bible as well
as the Dake Study Bible. In the footnotes Scofield split the second
coming of Christ into two events:

 Coming "for" the saints,   Coming "with" the saints (seven 

years later). Below is a quote from a well known Christian author
who lived
at the time this false theory was being introduced:

Robert Cameron (1845-1922):
"The Coming for, and the Coming with, the Saints, still

persists, although it involves a manifest contradiction,
two Second Comings which is an absurdity."
(Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p.639).


(There is a link at the end of this post where you can view brief
quotes by 30 of these renown church fathers, from 33AD to the
late 1800s; all taught the church would face the false christ).



If such a major event as the "pre-trib" rapture is true, why
isn't it found in Old Testament prophecy?__or in Jesus'
own teaching?__or His disciples?__or any of the New
Testament writers?__Jesus said in Mark 13:23, "I have
foretold you all things." He would have told us!!!


Others may say: That, "the tribulation is only for the 144,000"
And then they go on to say that these are the people that God
uses in this time to bring people to Christ. This may be true, in
part, but look at Rev. 7:1,2,3,4 where God puts a seal on this
small group. And because of this seal, they are protected!!
The woman (Israel/144,000) is protected in the last 3 1/2 years
of the tribulation (Rev. 12:13-14). This, in turn, makes the serpent
(Satan) angry, so he goes after us in Rev.12:17, those who have
"the testimony of Jesus Christ." _Again, go back to Rev. 7:9,
"After this (sealing of the 144000)
I beheld, and look, a great
multitude... of all nations...."
Now skip to Rev.7:13
, who are
these people, and where did they come from?__
Rev.7:14,
"these are they that came out of great tribulation......" And
God just stated in Rev 12:13-14, that the woman (Israel/144000)
are protected. So, who do you think this great multitude is, that
has the testimony of Jesus Christ if it's not us??__These are
martyred believers during the great tribulation (Rev.20:4).




So
, there are untold millions, along with the 144,000 Israelites who
are in this period of time. To say this time is only for them to
deal with is a "cop out" and just another assumption and not
valid. They base this on Isaiah 45:4 where Israel is called God's
"elect" (KJV), so then in Matt. 24:31, when Jesus sends his angels
to gather His "elect" after the tribulation, that this event (the
second Coming of Christ) is only for the 144,000 who have to go
through the tribulation._After we (non Jews/Israelites) accept
Jesus Christ as our Savior, we become God's elect. I'll back up
this statement with Paul's letters to non Israelites, the Galatians
and the Colossians:


 1   Gal.3:28-29
(paraphrased)"There is neither Jew or Greek,
you are all one in Christ...you also are Abraham's seed..."


 2   Col 3:11-12,
"...there is neither Greek or Jew...but Christ
is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the __Elect of God...."


3   I Peter 1:1-2, Peter writes a letter to different nationalities
and calls them the _"elect of God"_ because they have been
"washed in the blood of the Lamb"__ like we have been.
So, Israel_"and"_the church_"are"_God's elect!!




Jesus has one bride!
He created the miracle of uniting Jew
and Gentile alike into one bride. Let's just "reason together",
does it make any sense that Jesus would rapture out a partial
bride? What parts would He take first? And then...what? pick
up the other parts later - with whatever results the 144,000
are able to accomplish during the last 3 1/2 years? Why would
Jesus remove only some?


And... if He was going to do this, don't you think He would have
told us? At least one verse stating that He was going to take some

out first?  Jesus said in  Mark 13:23, "I have foretold you all
things."  He would have told us!!

Furthermore, do you suppose Jesus would have the wedding

feast with His "raptured" church (bride), without the tribulation saints, the  Old Testament saints,  the prophets or the 144,000? Let's think about this......... are we really this special?  Compared to these four other groups?




I am going to add a few scriptures, (that were not mentioned
at this conference) that are also used to support the pre-trib
rapture, so that you will have a complete list of all the verses,
assumptions and analogies this "new" doctrine was based on:



1
  Matt. 24:40, "....One shall be taken, and the other left."

Notice that Jesus made this statement just minutes after He

had told them "Immediately after the tribulation of those days."
(Matt.24:29). That's when "one will be taken and and the other
left"  Not seven years before!   Put it in context!



                          The Noah Analogy...

2   Many analogies are used by the Pre-Trib Rapture teachers,
for lack of scriptural proof. However, Noah is their main one,
so I will deal with this one. Everyone is aware of the fact that
Noah warned the people that a flood is coming and to repent,
but _they refused to listen.       The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
teachers say  "that's like the rapture",   so as Noah was saved
out of the flood, we will be "raptured" out of the Tribulation.
It's an analogy!!__An assumption!!


Did the flood come upon Noah, as well as the rest of the world
unawares? Let's read Gen.7:1 and Gen.7:4 and see. "And the
Lord
said unto Noah...For in seven days, I will cause it to rain upon
the earth..." OK, so it does appear that Noah knew ahead of time
when the flood was going to come...
                  
Note #9---->


...It was the world that did not know. Very important to notice
that Noah knew seven days before the exact day the flood would
start. And we will know seven years after the signing of the
covenant of Daniel 9:27,
the Lord Jesus Christ will return.

                           




3   Mark 13:32, is also used_"But of that day and that hour
knoweth no man..."
_Jesus told them this a few minutes after
telling them
in Mark 13:24 "..in those days after that tribulation,
the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light..."
And goes on to say in Mark 13:28-29 that we will know
this day is close because next He says in Mark 13:30....that the
generation that sees these things (the tribulation events), would

(back to Mark 13:26-27) "...see the Son of man coming in the
clouds.....to gather His elect from the...uttermost parts of the 
earth..."
Paul states in 1st Thes.5:4,
"we are not in darkness
that this day will come upon us as a
thief." Why? Because in
the next verse (1st Thes.5:5), "we are
children of the light..."   
However, right now no one knows,
but when the covenant of
Daniel 9:27 KJV is signed, we will know
to within a few weeks.  



Some people ask me, "why is it that the vast majority of
Christians believe in the pre-trib?"_
When Jesus came to the
earth the first time, the vast majority of the religious people
(the church) of that time, rejected him, even after many Old
Testament prophets foretold of this event. But they didn't want
a suffering Messiah, they wanted a conquering king. In this
case the vast majority was wrong!! Now, today, we want the
Messiah to take us out before a certain event, not after!! But,
guess what? we don't get to choose! He comes to the earth two
times (Heb 9:28). Once as a suffering Messiah, then a
second
time as a conquering KING at the Second Coming of Christ.




Important to read a list of one paragraph quotes from 30 of  the 
Early Church Fathers  such as:  Barnabas (30-102),  Justin Martyr
(98-167),     Augustine (354-430),     Bernard  (1090-1153)),    etc. 
They all taught that the church would be on the earth during the
reign of the Antichrist.


                                              Links:

Early Church Fathers            
Endtime Empire
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

165 comments:

Donna said...

Roger, I have been told many times, 'the majority is always right (rules) for, how can they ALL be wrong? God's Word proves how a crowd can ALL be wrong.

See Matthew 27:20-25
The elders and chief priests persuaded the multitude (crowd) to choose Barabbas (the murderer) to be set free and Jesus to be crucified (who was innocent).

v:22 "Pilate saith unto them (multitude) What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? THAY ALL SAY unto him, Let Him be crucified." The crowd was shouting this and in a riot!

Pilate (he was the minority) thought Jesus innocent and tried to persuade the crowd (the majority) of this. But they wouldn't listen. In the end... Pilate relented for fear of the multitude, and had Jesus crucified.

Is the crowd always right? For, how can they ALL be wrong?

Roger Armstrong said...

Donna, yes it was the religious leaders, the churches of Jesus' day; scribes, Pharisees, etc., shouting in the courtyard "crucify Him"... They were ALL WRONG!

Jesus was very angry at the churches of His day, all of them! And He repeated many times in Matthew chapter 23, "Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees..." And then He says "Ye blind guides, which strain out a gnat, and swallow a camel."

The churches were ALL wrong then, now jump forward 2,000 years, and we're right back to square one; We, (churches) in the western world, will strain out a tiny gnat, yet swallow a huge cammel, i.e., the blatantly false (new) pre-trib theory and teach it as doctrine...

I am not infering that todays Christians would want to crucify Jesus, of course not, they, we, all of us love Him dearly, and He loves ALL of us dearly and equaly, no matter what view we hold on this particular subject. But how sad He must be when He sees us working so hard to strain out a tiny gnat, but will swallow a camel__BECAUSE__this is what the majority believes_ so it must be true? Just like the religious people (churches) of Jesus day.

You are so right, and thank you.

Tammy L said...

isn't is just so amazing that we can all read the same bibles (for all of them though they may be interpreted a bit differently,match up quite well with one another when compared side by side)can all get a totally different understanding? The very verses those of a pre tribulation belief and school of thought,prove out a very loud very visible second coming of Christ. There is only one second coming of Christ and in each instance it says all the same things.
The sad thing is that these people have been schooled into believing their schooling. This lie began way back in 1830 by one man who even if he was a good preacher at some point, was also schooled by satan. He bought the lie and added on to it and then others took up where he left off and brought more into it to make it acceptable. It is a lie that people really want and seem to need to believe. Personally because I think they do not want to have hardships. They do not want to prove themselves worthy of their salvation. They want that free ticket to ride and they don't care! Sadly they will care one day,and wow they are going to have no oil to fill their lamps with. While their out trying to buy more oil, steal it or borrow it, the oil is the preparation and the preparation that was available will not be available in those times, for the Lord said there will be a famine in the land but not a famine of bread but a famine of the word.Amos 8:11. The preparation is the word it is the extra oil, the brides need.
He (the Lord) is going to tarry because He is waiting for all to come who will come.
Love what you have to say Donna! and Roger you know I totally agree with you brother!

Donna said...

Yes...many understandings (sometimes misunderstanding) of the Bible among the believers is quite common. As a baby in Christ, I could only understand a fraction of what I read in the Word of God. To make matters worse, hearing all the various interpretations when I would go to different types of churches kept my mind in a constant state of confusion.

Then, recently, the Lord Anointed me with His Holy Spirit (His presence moved into my spirit and lives with me) and the scales fell from my spiritual eyes and woke me up in my spirit and He quickened me...the Word of the Lord came alive! I could SEE the Word! It became so clear!

If anyone wants to truly see with God's eyes...pray you be anointed with this Power, the Anointing of His Holy Spirit, His Power. He will give to those who faithfully seek Him and ask anything in His will.

I pray my Fathers' Presence NEVER depart from me! In Jesus Name. Amen

Anonymous said...

I've long believed that we as true believers are meant to be here through the tribulation to try and bring as many with us as possible to heaven. For a long time I was told that my belief of this was wrong and to the point even blasphemous. Its nice to know that I was right and that Iam not alone!!! Lets fight the good fight my brothers and sisters of CHRIST! The antichrist won't be here for long but it will be the greatest battle of any of our lives. Keep the faith and stand strong!

Anonymous said...

I am glad to know that there are other christians out there that understand what Jesus was telling the church. God showed me these same scriptures , to show me that the tribulation comes first. how are we supposed to overcome if we are not here to do it. pre triblation gives people a false sense of security in thinking if they dont make it the first time they will have a second chance.thats why Jesus gave the parable of the ten virgins. he plainly said that 5 were ready and five werent. if we dont understand the truth then we wont understand whats going on around us. we wont be ready . then he goes on to say that . when the other 5 came and knocked on the door , he told them he never knew them.to be ready we have to understand the scriptures as they are written, not adding or taking away what was said. there will be no second chances and we will have to go through the tribulation. just,look around us. things are already falling into place. my name is nancy britt and i am not ashamed to claim the lord Jesus Christ as my lord and savior i had to put anonymous because i dont know what a url is. lol.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hello Nancy Britt, it's a great honor to know such a brave lady. God is so proud to have people like you that are not afraid, and will stand with the few and trust Him to carry you through these times, or to give us the strength for whatever is required for our testimony for our Lord and Savior.

And you are correct in your statement about the 10 virgins, all 10 are Christians because Jesus used this term as a metaphor for Christians (saved). Five were wise (prepared) and five were foolish (unprepared).

Jesus told us several times that the tribulation comes first. And Paul makes it very clear that the false christ comes first in II Thessalonians 2:1-3. And, as you wisely said "how are we supposed to be overcomers if we're not here to do it."

God Bless you Nancy and you have made proud the heart of our Lord. Roger

Anonymous said...

anonymous, why do you think that christians of today would not have to go through the things that christians of the past have.? if you read your bible Jesus said that there would be persecution of the christians in the last days. as i said before, how can we overcome if we are not here to do it. are you willing to give your life for Christ if it comes to it, which for many of us it surely will. these are the marters that will reign with christ for a 1000 years, along with those who came out of the great tribulation as spoken of in rev.
in Christ Jesus, nancy britt

Anonymous said...

roger, i just noticed your last name. are you by any chance related to herbert armstrong. i have been reading "tomorrows worl for years now.
nancy britt

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Nancy, No relation to H.W. Armstrong, nor was I ever connected to his organization in the past, nor am I connected to the present resurrection of his empire after it collapsed in ruin: "Tomorrow's World"

H.W. Armstrong was a brilliant man and played on the false doctrines being taught in today's churches, and exposed them for what they were; False... especially the blatantly false pre-trib view.

However, he went to far and this, over the years, turned more into a cult; they would lure you in with free literature that did make much more sense than what most churches were teaching, gain your complete trust, to the point where you almost worship this leader, then they control you from that point on... get people to sign over property to them... kinda' making them believe if they don't do this they won't get to heaven, basically. This organization collasped in ruin by infighting, power strugles, etc. Many dear people that were sucked into this, lost everything.

"Tomorrow's World" and another split that is rising from the Armstrong ruins is called "The Philadelphia Trumpet" In my opinion it's okay to read these and you will learn much, some truths and some falacys... keep the good, throw out the bad, and don't give them anything. They are way off on endtime prophecy, about Germany, Rome and the E.U., etc.

Many of todays mainline evangelical churches are boderline cults, especially many of the big ones on television, that teach the (what I call) 'give to get' doctrine. Totally against what Jesus taught, and this goes on and on... kinda' like I'm going on and on...haha

Okay, enough, this wasn't easy to explain and you probably know this anyway... Roger

Anonymous said...

nancy britt
thanks roger, i am glad you told me this. i have never given them money and wont now. they were just the closest thing i had found to the truth. yes there are some things that i didnt agree with. do you know of a church that is really following Gods word. I am seeking other christians who understand the bible the way we do.
your sister in christ Jesus nancy britt

Anonymous said...

nancy britt
anonymous if the church and the Holy spirit have already been taken out of the world before the tribulation then how can there be any more people saved. God says that only if the Holy Spirit draws them will they come to Christ. so if he isnt here anymore how will they be drawn to Christ. the 144000 will still be here. the saints that come through the great tribulation will still be here. also God says not to worry about what you will say at that time because the the words will be given to you by the Holy Spirit. this is when christians will be called to give an account for themselves.so the Holy spirit is here for all these things. how can he be already gone. God says that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit till the day of redemption.if all these people are still here then they are sealed with the Holy spirit. so he has to be still here during the tribulation. i truely wish you could understand this, because it can make the difference in whether you are able to stand when all these things happen. if you dont believe us then pray and ask the lord to show you the truth., not what man says but what god says. if you are right he will show you. if not He will open your eyes to the truth.
your sister in christ, nancy britt

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Nancy, It's very difficult to find an evangelical church in the U.S. or England that dosen't teach the "pre-trib" rapture... maybe on a scale of 1 out of 50. However, they are still our brothers and sisters in Christ and we need to worship with them. Even though the pastor and church leaders teach this false theory, there are always a hand full of people out of these churches that believe in the "post" view, and bring it up in the adult sunday classes from time to time; never argue with anyone, I have done this through the years and have many one on one conversations with different pastors, and this truth is growing.

Many people have changed, but for the pastors to change, and teach this from the pulpit, they know that they would be fired. This happened at a large church that we went to in Roseburg Oregon. I spoke with the senior pastor, and one or two weeks later, he told me I was right about the "pre-trib" right before the service, and then he proceeded to teach (in all three services) that the Pre-trib was false... two weeks later this very popular pastor was fired for this.

I would say to continue going to the same church (one that teaches the Deity of the Godhead, and salvation through Christ), and when this topic comes up in the adult sunday class, view this as a ministry and present the facts, you will find that they have no proof whatsoever, and many of them will find, for the first in their life, that this false theory dosen't have a single scripture to use as a foundation to build all of their assumptions on. Some will get angry because they want to believe this so bad, yet can't find any solid proof; Don't ever argue, just present the truth from God's Word. GBY... Roger

randy said...

dear nancy britt,i dont have a lot of time to prove your in error.being wrong is not a sin,its only the absence of truth.its impossible for me to pour into you 4 decades of experience on this matter.but i will ask you to find the truth for yourself.go find the interpreters bible as far back even as the 1953 edition which is still widely used today.the book of acts best bible scholars notes the second coming will never happen literaly looking in the sky. they go on to show how its spiritual to us today.the word coming means revelation which is spiritual.you will find that in the king james study bible in 1cor.1 v.7.look in the middle section.it is no more literal than your salvation or gods love joy peace ect...jesus did fulfill all prophesy and the prophets because he said so.i want you to dig and find it in matthew.use your concordanceand as you study the lord will reveal to you the truth and you will never look at the bible the same again with a false hope of a future event,but know that emanuel means god with us ,not god gonna be with us.so if christ is in your heart, then why are you waiting for him to come back?????????????

Anonymous said...

nancy britt
randy i do study the scriptures. in john 14: 2&3 Jesus said in his fathers house are many mansions . if it were not so i would have told you. i go to prepare a place for you. and if igo and prepare a place for you . i will come again and recieve you unto myself; that whre i am theere you may be also. this is a literal coming back
nancy britt

Anonymous said...

i guess you just cant reach some people. but they will see when the tribulation starts in earnest and then they will know. you are right . from now on i will just tell them the scripture and leave it to them to understand. we have to try and tell them though to warn them . when the anti christ comes on the scene , many will be fooled and think that he is the christ. but as Jesus said. as the lightning shineth from the east to the west . we will all see him. i believe this with all my heart. and it greaves me that some people will be fooled into thinking this. these are christians and because they havent understood the truth they will be decieved.
nancy britt

randy said...

gerry, you left out 1thess.chap.4,the most widely used scipture that most say is literal and in the future.well,in the same veres paul says let us not sleep as do others.so then your saying we literally must sell our beds and take pills to keep us awake???? come on gerry i think your smarter than that.Im just trying to get people to study themselves instead of swallowing what the majority are saying.they thought jesus was going to set up a literal kingdom in his day also. but jesus said my kingdom is not of this world,if my kingdom were of this world then my servants would fight.therfore my kingdom is not from here.the author john noe did his homework and stated in his book the apocalypse conspiracy that only in the last 90 yrs has a literal coming of christ been popular.from first century to the early 1900s it was considered flat out heresy. you will have to discover the truth for your self gerry.In the meantime be blessed. love in christ.

Roger Armstrong said...

Randy, I dodn't see how you can get around one of the scriptures Gerry gave you that clearly proves a literal return of Christ:

"...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in LIKE manner as you have seen Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11).

The footnote in the above verse refers you to Rev.1:7, "Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall SEE Him..."

And you know I can list several more that state the exact same thing. With all do respect, don't you think it would be a waste of time to carry on a dialogue trying to disprove something that is so clear in God's Word? Roger

gerry logan said...

Randy,
when Paul is speaking of let us not sleep as others do.Paul is speaking of spiritual slumber.Not physical sleep.God warned about this in the old testament as well as the new testament.read Isaiah 29:10,Isaiah 56:10 mark 13:35-36, Romans 11:8, Romans 13:11 Ephesians 5:14 1 Thessalonians 5:6

Anonymous said...

nancy britt
as fellow christians we can all agree to disagree. in time the proof wll be there, one way or another. the main thing is to be ready when jesus returns. to do the things that jesus said we should be doing. feed the poor , clothe the naked. , take in the stranger.he said when we do these things for others , we are doing them for him. let us love one another and try to be more like jesus. i am also sorry if i offended you randy. i was just telling you my beliefs. may god bless you and keep you.
nancy britt

Roger Armstrong said...

That's cute, spiritual eyes I assume, haha. Even in Jesus day He referred to the religous leaders as 'having eyes yet see not', and would probably fit us in today's world... Kinda' like 'looking through a glass darkly' i.e., many shapes and forms, hard to see clearly, many voices; truth mixed with the false, etc... all of us struggle with this...

Anonymous said...

Thank you, I have come to the same conclusion as you by carefully studying the same scriptures. Its a little nerve racking at first but, John 16:13.

Denny said...

Roger, great post! I agree with you on post-trib. I have a blog post on the end time called: http://dennyschristianwritings.blogspot.com/2012/03/rapture-of-churchthe-first-resurrection_07.html

Please use your concordance to research the expression "day of the Lord." It occurs over 20 times, in fact probably twice that in all the variations. I will explain the end time. The rapture is at the end of the trib and The day of the Lord follows the trib.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Denny, thank you for the comment and so far I read over half of your post... the rest tomorrow. I just clicked on your name and it came up... the link was quite lengthly.. haha.

Your post was interesting and very well presented. I agree with you for the most part... very good on the "elect" and on the 200 million, and etc... I'll read the rest tomorrow and maybe click on a few of your links. We differ on the order of events, but not that important at this time. GBY

patty said...

I have been a prophetic servant of the Lord for many years and I have never believed in the pre-rapture. I was taught this as a child but when i became old enough to read the Bible for myself the Holy Spirit helped me have the revelation knowledge of its truth. I have tried to convince others not to believe this lie. It is the great deception of believers.

Thank you for your courage to stand against the popular teachings about the rapture and continue to be strong in speaking the truth.

God Bless You.
Patty

Sandy said...

If you want to know when we as true believers of Christ our Lord will be taken up, read all of revelation 20, more specifically verses 5 and 6. If this is the first resurrection as John was told, how could we have been resurrected seven years before? You can't say it wasn't a resurrection but a taking up, when the dead in Christ will be resurrected just before we are taken up. That there my friend is a resurrection! So we're talking about the taking up at the end of the tribulation. There are so many more verses that prove that we are post-taken up, but it only takes one verse.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Patty, Thank you for taking the time to comment. Wow! having been taught this pre-trib view in your early years and still able to turn away from this false teaching is amazing. Yes, I agree, this is the GREAT DECEPTION of believers... untold millions will fall because of this blatant lie.

We must do what we can while there is still time. Thank you so much... comments like yours are very encouraging. GBY, Roger

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Sandy, Wow! Two encouraging comments on the same day. Yes, Revelation chapter 20, really puts it all in perspective. And, notice in verse 10... "And the devil that deceived THEM..." Christians are the 'THEM'... And 'deceived' is past tense... it works!!

...because non Christians are already deceived! It's us! And, it will be simple for him to do this because he has been doing the ground work since the mid 1800's with this blatantly false pre-trib theory that is being taught as truth?? May God have mercy on us!

Yes, there are many scriptures that clearly prove that the second coming is one event... after the resurrection... that takes place on the last day (John 6:40,44,54), and Christ returns AFTER this resurrection... He can't come 7 years BEFORE the 'last' day. Last is Last! What is it that we don't understand about this word??

God Bless both of you (Patty and Sandy) for your brave stand on God's Truth. Roger

GARRY L CLINE said...

yes i beleive in jesus christ second coming and i have some knowledge that it will possibly within the next 100 yrs or so. so us as christians should always serve and love the lord our GOD AMEN. god bless you and looking for your response and THANK YOU!

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Garry, thank you for your comment, and that you believe in the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. And especially that you love the Lord. We do not know when this great event will take place, but could be very soon.

The important thing to remember (if this event takes place in our lifetime), is that we (Christians) must be prepared to face some very difficult times for our faith in Christ in the last half of the great tribulation (3 1/2yrs), but not to give up, He will give us the strength if we trust Him, and are willing to stand for Him. Do not take the mark that will make it easy for us (Christians)... we will lose our salvation and be forever lost...

...Millions of Christians will be deceived in this time because they are taught by our Christian leaders that they won't be on the earth during this tribulation time; they won't be prepared and many will fall. See Rev.13:13-16, Rev.14:9-10, Rev.20:4, and several others. GBY, Roger

gerry logan said...

My question is if Jesus shortened the tribulation as stated in Mathew 24 verse 22 how can the
pre- tribulationist still hold on to a seven year tribulation period?

Anonymous said...

Sometimes these questions get somewhat silly. Gerry, this is the problem you have, when you read scripture one or two verses at a time. You wind up taking one verse, and adding a completely different meaning to it. Read the whole chapter.

The whole chapter is speaking of how terrible the tribulation period is. And if it went on for more than seven years, there would be no one left on the earth. God is not going to let mankind commit total suicide.If you read in Revelation, 1/3rd of the earths population dies, another time another quarter of the population dies, from famine, pestilence, war, etc.Many more die of other causes. In total well over half of the earth's population dies.

Do you really think after coming to the conclusion that the tribulation period is seven years long, as is affirmed in the scriptures, that this verse means that it is going to be shortened to something less than seven years???

Quit reading scripture one or two verses at a time, or you'll bounce around like a ping pong ball, from interpretation to interpretation.

The people on this site and other sites also, who believe the rapture is post trib, have no idea how to interpret scripture, and can come up with whatever they want scripture to say.

This is the wrong way to interpret scripture, and you'll just keep confusing yourself and others.You believe the rapture is post trib, and you make the scripture fit your beliefs, instead of the scripture telling you what God is saying.

gerry logan said...

Anonymous,
I will not get into a debate of Gods word with you if you wish to believe that which is false that is entirely up to you.However I will state through out Gods word the servants of God have a job to do until the master returns. and blessed is that servant when the master returns finds that faithful servant doing that job.No where in Gods word do you find the gathering of the saints before the tribulation period. Matthew 13 Jesus tells us its at the end of this age Matthew 24 Jesus tells us it is immediately after the tribulation.in Mark 13 I don't understand how anybody can have a pre trib rapture idea when Gods word clearly tells us that the gathering takes place after the tribulation.

Anonymous said...

Wow i am sorry to see you guys have such a problem with the truth that is right before your blinded eyes but no matter when we all get to heaven i am going to give you all a big hug and say welcome brothers and sisters!! going up as a bride and coming back as a warrior with Christ

Roger Armstrong said...

What truth is it that is right before my eyes? Can you give me one scripture that states we will be taken out before the tribulation?

And if you can't, how do you expect to come back as a warrior after it's all over, if you don't want to be on the earth when God can really use you during this time for your witness so that others can be saved. God works through His people.

So, what is missing from your statement is... the proof!

the last trumpet said...

many thanks for the site and the information. I fidn ALL What you say to be TRUTH and grounded in the Word of GOD!

It is good to see people speaking out against the false teaching of the pre-trib.
I pray God will bless you and keep you.

Anonymous said...

Why people that believe in post tribulation hate so much those of us who believe in Pre-Tribulation? We dont preach two comings, there is only 1 coming and that happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation. The rapture of the church occurs on the air, not on the Earth, so there is no 2 comings. You all need to stop preaching hate against those of us who believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, post tribulation rapture is antisemitic. the 7 years of Tribulation is for God to deal with Israel for rejecting Christ, it has nothing to do with the Church. It has to do with Israel and those gentiles who will repent and accept Christ because of the labor of the 144000 and the work of the Angel of the Lord.

Roger Armstrong said...

We do not hate (as you say) anyone who believers in the pre-trib, if we did we wouldn't go way out of our way to try to warn these people that this is a false theory and millions we be deceived and fall because of this. Do you think we do this for fun, when, in fact, this costs us time and money to get this word out?

This pre-trib theory is not built on a single scripture, and was not taught for the first 1830 years of church history... Do you think that all of these great church leaders and writers during these 1800 years were stupid?

God hates false theorys and this one is now taught as doctrine. You and others like you will be part of this terrible falsehood that causes millions to fall and God may very well ask you to show Him the scripture that states He will return before the tribulation to take them.

My question to you is: What one will you show Him? You will soon find out that there isn't even one.

We do not hate you... We do this in love in hopes you will see the truth.

PS__ The 144 thousand do not save anyone during this time, they are hidden away and protected. It is us (Christians, the church) that will be involved (by our testimony)in bringing people to Christ.

Roger Armstrong said...

Anonymous, the religious people (the church) of Jesus day apparently did not spend any time at all in trying to have the "right theology" (paying attention to detail as you suggest we should not do) and had they done so they would have recognized Him by all of the scriptures that described Him, AND, would NOT have killed Him like they (the church) did!...

...They wanted their Savior to be a conquering king, NOT a suffering Messiah! And the vast majority of todays Christians want Jesus to take them OUT of something that they (the church) doesn't want to go through, AND will do this WITHOUT a single scripture to back this up...

But... who cares about the DETAILS? When we don't want to go through something...we don't have to! Right?

There is TRUTH and there is LOVE, both are important... but they are different issues...

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Roger Armstrong said...

Anonymous, this is getting a bit redundant... You have your view and I have mine, we both think our view is the right one, so we will just leave it there... no problem!

kim said...

Roger,


Thought I'd drop by your site and see how things were going. Happy to see you still plugging along and fighting the fight. Even with those who might think "scholars" and men know more than a Strong's Concordance and God Himself. Check in with you later, or when someone visits your site with a worthy argument.

LOVE IN OUR LORD!

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Kim, Good to hear from you again... Yeah still plugging along, I'm about as popular among my Christian peers as the O.T. prophets were to the people of their day; they only wanted to hear nice things... like todays Christians!

God Bless you Kim, and yes, love in our Lord.

Kim said...



Food For Thought

Rev.2:9-10 - ..."and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Who is this addressed to? The "Church" of Smyrna. It is not addressed to unbelievers. It is also not the wrath of God. It is Satan's hour. The wrath of God comes AFTER the anti-christ stands in the Holy Place showing himself as God (II Thessalonians 2:1-4).

Cross reference Rev. 2:9-10 with Mark 13: 9-14 (notice the part you call the "rapture" isn't mentioned until v.26) and Luke 21:12-18. Put this in perspective with Daniel 9:27 and also Rev. 3:9-11. Ask God to open eyes and open ears so that hopefully more will be saved.

Roger Armstrong said...

To Kim, your above comment was very good, very true and very clear. Unfortunately most pre-trib people will not look into these verses and put them into the proper time slots as you did. It seems that we all have eyes... yet most of us see not... as Jesus said, or something to that effect.

God Bless you my dear sister

Camille said...

Hi, Roger, I thoroughly enjoyed your blog. I too was raised to believe in a pre-trib rapture. As I got older I questioned that point of view. I am currently in a "Prophesy" Bible study and most believe in the pre-trib. There are only 2 of us that hold with the post-trib presented in the Bible. Sometimes we go back and forth on this, but we agree that CHrist is coming again!

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Camille, thank you for your encouraging words. Yes, we are all Christians no matter what view we hold. You are lucky to have another person in this group that agrees with you. Over the years I've been in several different study groups where I was always the only one.

I thank God for people like you and others who are not afraid to get this truth out there; It is working as I see more and more Christians in these past few years that are seeing how blatantly false this pre-trib view is.

Anonymous said...

Praise the Lord brethern !

Just wanted to share a really interesting scripture study I found !

Revelation 20:4-5 clearly shows that the FIRST resurrection will INCLUDE endtime saints who RESISTED or OVERCAME the Mark of the Beast. That is certainly not a pre-trib scenario. If there will be people in the FIRST RESURRECTION who overcame the Mark of the Beast, then there will not be a rapture or resurrection before the Mark of the Beast!

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Also pay very close attention to what these verses are saying -

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Take note that it is clearly saying that "that day" shall not come till some point in time AFTER the Antichrist enters the rebuilt temple and proclaims to be God.

(what is "that day" ? - it is in verse one, the day of "our gathering together unto him" - also known as the "rapture")

.......so these verses clearly prove that the "rapture can NOT possibly be pre-trib, and there are other verses that show a post-trib "rapture".


Does it really matter how we believe about the timing of the rapture, the following article written by an apostolic minister scripturally shows how important it can be -

http://kenraggio.com/KRPN-PreOrPostTrib.htm

Also read:

http://kenraggio.com/KRPN-WhenWillTheRaptureTakePlace.htm

(click on the above links to read articles)



Anonymous said...

i split from a church over this same ordeal. i had spoken to the pastor, youth pastor and associate pastor about it in a course of about two months and sadly they all agreed with me but werent willing to change their position out of fear of lods of peritioners for the pastor, and loss of a job for associate pastor. in my studys, i had many people that asked questions regarding what so and so said on their weekly program or what not. after a few weeks of an individual asking me vqrious questions pertaining to the same thing, i took him to a conference that was post trib view. ( my only intention was for him to study and read the word for himself and develop his own understanding through direction of prayer and guidence of the holy spirit) a few days later i was told (in a group of 25 or so) that i was "better off with a milstone hung around my neck and be drown in the depths of the sea" b and that i had a jezebel spirit siming to divide the congregation because i had confused a baby in christ while in reality, the lies he was listening to in the first place confusrd him and im a believer in the word and truth and belive the truth set him free as it says it would. fast forward 10 yrs, that church is no mpre and the congregation had devided in the name of "expansion" i suppose.
the problem i see and have experienced firsthand is that the xhurches that preach the lie cannot admit to the lie because then they would have to admit that all the previous sermons before then were not from the spirit because how could the spirit hace anything to do with a lie and you see where im going.. sad really but thats man in the flesh speaking on the spirit of god without the spirit of.
i would like to emphasise the post trib point of view with a verse and a chapter not before mentioned.
revelation 16:15-16
revelation 10:1-7.. actually the whole chapter
revelation 11:15-19
i am in the frame of mind that the book of revelation isnt exactly read or understood from front to back but rather overlaps itself. seals trumpets and bowls all culminate in the same even with different need to knows in between :) there are not 21 seperate plagues... in my humble opinion.

good day and god bless
jst a sinner..

Roger Armstrong said...

Yes, I've had similar experiences over the years. I agree with you that certain chapters, sometimes several, for example beginning at Revelation chapter 6, to about chapter 20, is one story that goes back to the beginning several times and each time filling in different details.

Like several layers of paint, one on top of the other, each color having different glitter mixed in with it, like filling in all the different details with different strokes until the story is complete.

Thank you for your comment...Roger

Angela Newland said...

I want to thank you for your willingness to share the truth. Coming from a small Baptist church during my growing up years I was taught pre-tribulation teachings. Now as an adult with my own family I have been seeking more truth from God's Word on my own. The "falling away" is in full swing. I have shared your article with my mom as well.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Angela, yes, the "falling away" is in full swing; "apostasy" in the Greek; falling away from the truth (todays churches).

Thank you for your encouraging words, and may God Bless you and your family

Anonymous said...

hello roger, been awhile since i have been on here, i totaly agree with you about post tribulation. my computer broke and i could not remeber your blog name, so i was looking for post tribulation blogs or forums and believe it or not, yours is one of the very few i could findthat went past 2012, this really floored me. i think many people are turning to pre trib because it is getting so close and they are petrified. they dont wont to believe it. but we know that it is real and if people arent getting closer to God and learning how to trust him no matter what then they are in trouble. i have made up in my heart that i Belong to Jesus come what may. if i die ' i will be with him. life is not worth living without him in it anyway . my name is nancy britt

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Nancy, yes I remember you, good to hear from you again. And I agree with your statement. You have the right attitude, and this conforms to God's Word: "God hath not given us the spirit of fear." (2nd Tim.1:7). Also God will not allow man, influenced by evil powers, to put us through more than we are able to take... (forgot the verse). And, of course, we are protected from God's wrath. So good to hear from you, stay strong in Christ, Roger

DeWayne said...

There is a time for the Gentile, that according to scripture, ends gathered up) before the last of the scattered are brought into heaven. In revelation strongly appears to identify the people-Israel as the last (remnant) taken into the heavens, John was told by an angel (1335-days into Satan's release and rule), 'these are they (souls) from the Great Tribulations'.
Certainly after this, at Christ's return, the angels are sent to gather (all) saints, from 'one end of the heavens to the other'.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi DeWayne,
I didn't fully understand your comment enough to reply, but did go to your web page, which I found to be very interesting, and, by the way, very well presented and easy to navigate through the many topics. I did a quick read on a few... very good from a historic viewpoint, and other topics as well, but, of course, will disagree (as we all seem to do) on a few.

My main page is a simplistic approach to what I found to clearly be a false teaching, i.e., pre-trib rapture. However I have several links that go into the deep water. But, like you stated, we can certainly learn and perhaps change our views.

When time allows I will go back to your web page and take a longer look, and maybe get back to you via email

Anonymous said...

Hi Roger, I see that you are still doing your false teaching of a post trib rapture. You should be ashamed of yourself. You are one of those false teachers Jesus warned us about.

1- The great tribulation is a judgement FROM God for UNBELIEF.True believers will NOT go through the great tribulation.

2- Your teaching that a born again Christian can lose their salvation is just a bunch of nonsense.

You have no idea on how to interpret scripture. You haven't interpreted one verse correctly since I've been watching your website.

Someone such as yourself, who has no idea on how to interpret scripture should stop blaspheming God's word, with your false "teaching".

Roger Armstrong said...

Above anonymous... I'm assuming that you think you're a Christian, but the hate you have in your heart for me, seems to suggest otherwise...

Filip and Elena Milosavljevic said...

I suggest reading Ranko Stefanovic's commentary "Revelation of Jesus Christ" 2nd Ed. to help give more clarity on the book of Revelation and help many of you see the historical as well as the Greek significance of what is being said.

xyz said...

Wow! Wonderful Website with the truth!
Many years ago, the LORD showed me the truth of the post-Trib. gathering unto Christ and not the pre-Trib. "rapture." I put it aside until the past few years, because of all those who insist upon it, with their scriptures.
I would like to forward your Website, but you have a few errors which would turn off some people :)
You have "brother's" and "sister's" several times with the apostrophe. That is incorrect. When you mean plural (more than one, which I believe is your meaning), you don't put the apostrophe. It only goes where there is something the brother or sister possesses afterward--as my brother's coat. Does that make sense?
Thank you for your great post and corrections to grammar. (We can't all be teachers with good grammar! :)
D,C,

Roger Armstrong said...

To D.C.,
Thank you for taking the time to point that out to me... I'm always open to constructive criticism, and would appreciate you pointing out others when you have the time.

Email might be easier, but either way is fine. And I will make those changes as it does make sense.
Roger

Unknown said...

It always astonishes me how some people can so utterly misunderstand God's Word. The post-trib "Rapture" (which, let's face it, is the same as no Rapture at all).

A couple of clues for you to ponder:

1. Jesus' disciples asked Him about the Second Coming in Mat. 24. What He told them relates to Israel during the Tribulation, the Second Coming, and the Sheep and Goat Judgment that follows. The Church and the Rapture are never mentioned and are nowhere in sight.

2. The church is not the wheat. We're the barley. Tribulation Saints are the wheat.

3. Speaking of the Sheep and Goat Judgment, I have yet to have a post-tribber explain to me where the Sheep come from--the natural-bodied believers who survive the Tribulation and enter into the Millennial Kingdom. They just lamely toss out some smoke and mirrors and change the subject, and the reason is simple--the post-trib Rapture theory makes the fulfillment of this Scripture physically impossible.

Roger Armstrong said...

Above "unknown"... I read this the other day but couldn't make any sense of it, and still can't today. With all do respect...Can't you come up with something a little more concrete to say...Maybe a scripture that states Jesus returns for his church "before" the tribulation or maybe that there are two parts to His second coming?

The Bible clearly states that there was (past tense) a "first" coming...

...and there will be (future tense) a "second coming" that's all... two events!

The 3 points you made in your comment are just speculation and hear say...wouldn't stand up in any court of law.

Anonymous said...

You are wrong again Roger. I don't have any hate for you or any one else.

I do very much dislike false teaching, (such as yours). False teachers will be judged by God, not me.

So your future will include a punishment from God for your false teaching.

Roger Armstrong said...

I teach as Paul taught us in 2nd Thes.2:1-3,(paraphrased) "...that we will not be gathered to Him (Jesus) until AFTER the false Christ is revealed FIRST..." And NOT to let anyone deceive us by stating that He (Jesus) comes FIRST, then... the false christ will be reveled.

And we are further admonished not to let them (people like you) deceive us "by any means." With all do respect, how do you get around this clear statement made by Paul?

Larry Taylor said...

Roger: You did a great job with your research. I really loved reading your finding. I have sent this to all friends. I just wish they would read the word of GOD, and not listen to what man has dreamed up about this so called rapture.
>
May God bless you and Heide !

Roger Armstrong said...

Thank you Larry for your kind words and for forwarding this to others. And may God Bless you and your loved ones.

Anonymous said...

Glad to see your site is still on Roger. :o) You have tirelessly answered rude comments with dignity and graciousness. Such a blessing!

My prayer is to find a church nearby that does not teach pre-trib. The pastor of the last church I attended insisted on saying "I am so pre-trib I won't eat Post Toasties."

Roger Armstrong said...

Thank you so much my Anonymous friend. Your last pastor seems to have a sense of humor about this topic, but it won't be so funny when he and dozens, maybe hundreds, of people's laughter will turn to tears and sorrow after being deceived by this false-Christ. We need to reach as many as we can...as Paul has taught us in II Thes.2:1-5, in essence: "The false Christ comes first."

yohannbiimu said...

Thank you for this blog that thoroughly explains what is plainly spoken, rather than "interpreted" in God's word about the end times, and the Church's role in it. I was pretty much brought-up believing in a pre-trib rapture, but through my own reading of the scriptures (particularly in Matthew 24, 2 Thessalonians 2, and 1 Corinthians 15), I began to question this POPULAR notion regarding a rapture that seemingly rescues Christians from any harm coming to us (all the while, Christians ARE facing tribulation, and have been for centuries). And, as I continued to question these "proofs" of a pre-tribulation, I found more questions for each one, and NO answers. Now, I am thoroughly convinced that the church will remain until the last day (as you've explained), and that we will STILL have work to do for God's edification and glory. I praise God that I have not been deceived, and I hope to encourage as many as possible to remain steadfast when REAL tribulation befalls us. God Bless you!

Roger Armstrong said...

Yohannbiimu, your words were very encouraging to me, thank you. I read a few articles on your blog site...very, very, good and important for us to understand in todays world...I will read more when I have more time...

Anonymous said...

So glad that I found your blog. I have read the Bible cover to cover for over 40 yrs and could not find any proof of a 'rapture' although most churches I have attended preach this 'rapture'. Revelation is speaking to the 7 churches of 5 that Christ has ought with, So the two that are upright are going to be hard to find in these last days. If the church is supposed to be 'raptured', then why is Christ writing Revelation to them....all the Scriptures I have read over the years are in agreement with your teaching. I am in a Revelation study now and disagree with the teacher who believes in 'rapture'. (There is no word rapture in Scripture.) Her teachings are mostly taken from films and the Left Behind series. She does not teach directly from Scriptures. It makes me sad to see all this false teaching, yet Christ did warn us to not be deceived. When one reads the Scriptures as I have, not taking the verses out of context, they can see there is no 'rapture'. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. We do not overcome by being 'raptured.' God bless and may He open the eyes of those who are deceived.

Roger Armstrong said...

You are so right my friend, stand in there and may God bless you.

vic said...

I wish you had a share link on this page. I was taught the rapture when I was a child but when I grew up I read the bible for myself and found out that it clearly tells us no one is going anywhere. God seals his knowledge in your forehead,ie your mind, and the earth is made new, the kingdom of God comes down to earth. Those with the seal of knowledge know what season it is. Thanks for your page.

Roger Armstrong said...

Thanks' Vic. I don't know how to add a share link, but I do know that people have forwarded my post to friends (I also don't know how they do this, haha, yeah a computer nerd).

Cynthia said...

Hi, Roger. I spoke with you on your other web address about a year ago and you answered several questions for me as a babe in Christ and told me to "hang on for the ride." I had read your page regarding a conference you attended on the timing of the rapture. I have just been reading this blog from people for post trib and pre trib rapture doctrines. Now, be gentle and patient with me all bloggers, please. I only am hungry and thirsty for as much truth as have been given in God's word! I have been reading the scriptures referenced for post grin views and I understand that Jesus says "on the last day".., "at the last trump"... in John 6:40,44,54 and 17:15. However, the scriptures from Rev. 2,9-10, Mark 13:9-14 seems to be given to Jews attending synagogues and living in Judea. It seems to me Daniel 9:27 is speaking of an event talk.g place in Jerusalem that we need to stay abreast of via media. I am thinking this time is during the tribulation that Satan brings after the Anti Christ exalts himself in Jerusalem. Should I focus on the letters written to the Gentiles? Is some doctrine pertaining to Jews only? I know all Israel will be saved from Romans 11:26. I believe the question formulating in my mind is....is there a different experience for Israel than the Gentiles churches. Of the seven churches at Asia, how and which were the Gentiles? Sorry for being so verbose. Any insight from those who understand will be appreciated.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Synthia, So good to hear from you. Taking your last question first: The seven letters were to the seven different churches that were in Asia in John's day. However, they were to be an example for today's churches as all Christian churches of today will fall into one of these seven; All but two had major problems and like today's churches... the vast majority have major problems which leaves a very slim minority that are approved by Christ.

Daniel 9:27 is an event that takes place in the near future so we will know when the tribulation begins. A peace treaty between the Jews and the Arabs will be signed and probably backed up by all of the world powers. This treaty will allow the Jews to rebuild the temple on the temple mount where the golden Dome of the rock now stands, of course in view via TV to the world, we can't miss this sign we will know.

Your other questions I would be glad to answer (the best that I can), if you would contact me via email, as this is getting lengthy.

Anonymous said...

God I pray that you show me or lift the
blinds from my eyesight if there is. Im
confused over this controversy.

Roger Armstrong said...

Above anonymous (5:57PM), We are told to "Prove all things"... No need to be confused... just take all of the scriptures that clearly state that Christ returns 'after' the tribulation, list them all... then try to find at least one scripture that states that this is 'two' events; Before and After. If you can find one let me know and I will take my website off of the internet.

No matter what we believe on this topic, we are saved by grace.

HANDMAIDEN said...

Hi Roger;
I love this site. It is a blessing to read the comments which come from the hearts of others who love Christ. I agree with your position to the truth of the Post Tribulation second coming of Christ. I have been looking into the history of the Church and found that the early Church fathers were desperately trying to follow the original doctrine of Christ and were greatly concerned with the apostasy which was occurring in their day. Satan was not sleeping and when he could not tempt our Lord, he then went after the Church. He held the "carrot" of world wealth and beauty up before the eyes of the then staggering Church, and by using Constantine, he was able to take the Churches focus off our Lord and get them to value the visible kingdom instead of the invisible kingdom in which Christ dwells.

Mariola Bravo said...

Hello. I think it pays to remain a student always. Is life and this world not just one big school for Soul? With an eye to the future and Collective Human Spiritual Development of mankind, and with all due respect - the greatest misinterpretation of Scripture is that a man need not toil for his salvation and that he is "saved" by the utterance of his identity as a follower of Jesus. We also need to look at Christship as a seat or throne above. And Jesus' appointment/mandate/function as one who was overshadowed as a vessel of the Father Christ until his moment on the cross, "why have you forsaken me?" Where the second coming is concerned, Jesus gave the church to Simon - Peter. That is significant. Many know the Soul of Simon Peter to be incarnate as the person/Mooya Chilube.(see www.logos-im.org.za )It is understood by many paths that when Jesus said, let those who have eyes see and those who have ears hear...he was speaking of the Audible lifestream/the Spirit of God. This amounts to second sight too. All I am saying is that Christianity has been hijacked and the fervent seekers after God and heaven have been betrayed by the leadership. That is the saddest thing of all. A Christian must remain a seeker after the revelation and experience of God. The saved by declaration thing is a farce. Did Jesus not say, if you do not seek and find heaven in the body of flesh, what guarantee is there that you will do so after death.

Roger Armstrong said...

To Handmaiden, Thank you for your kind words and I agree with your other statements.

Roger Armstrong said...

To Mariola Bravo, Thank you for your comment, although I don't fully grasp all of it in detail, as I feel I should... I do understand the main point that I believe you summed up in the last four lines of your statement... and I agree.

Jonathan Haskins said...

Can you explain this?


Please observe:




Luke 17:36-37

36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”[f]
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Rightly divided with this (2 Tim. 2:15):

Revelation 19:21

And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Please note that the context of the Rev. verse I posted is indeed when the Lord returns; when heaven is opened and the son of man is revealed.

So please explain, sincerely,


Jonathan



P.S. My weblog is meccasevenmountains.blogspot.com
P.P.S. Let this just be fuel to the fire to those that agree. So, in other words, you don't need to explain it to me. But for those that disagree please email me with an explanation.
P.P.P.S. And to all:

I sincerely ask you all to enjoy my weblog.

Roger Armstrong said...

Jonathan, The scripture "One will be taken and the other left" does not have the word 'Before' or 'After' So one could put this verse wherever he wants... as you have done... for lack of any solid verse to prove the pre-trib.

Yes... one will be taken and the other left... when Christ returns "after" the tribulation right before 'God's Day of Wrath' at the very end of the tribulation. We can both use this verse.

With all do respect, Roger

bob monday said...

The only issue I have with what you have placed is that it is at the last trump that we are called. Now, look in Revelations, the last trumpet happens before the seven bowls of wrath are poured out. So, for it to be read very easy, there is a rapture that happens before the bowls of wrath are poured out, but certainly far after the antichrist appears, and after the giant earthquake, and likely after the judgement that befalls the Mystery Babylon, USA is her.

So, we are not appointed unto wrath, the seven bowls, that is when the wedding of the church and Christ take place.

Roger Armstrong said...

To Bob Monday...We disagree a little, as many do on this topic, but we are close enough to where the end result would be the same.

You probably hold to the sequence view of the 7+7+7 in regard to the seals, trumps and vials, whereas I believe the order is: Seal,Trump,Vial...Seal,Trump,Vial, etc., until all 21 plagues have fallen. Much to lengthy to discuss in this column. I explain this on a link I have:

http://4horsemen4.blogspot.com/

Jonathan Haskins said...

Tell me what you all think... go to http://meccasevenmountains.blogspot.com

Willie Brown said...

I want to put something on the minds the pretrib believers.The scripture says that at the time of the rapture that the dead in. Christ should. rise first &we who are alive in Christ shall be caught up after.Now if the Church is gone before the Great Tribulation people on earth will still be accepting Christ as their savior & living &dying. so the pretrib belief conflicts with the verse in Thessalonians.

Roger Armstrong said...

That is 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17, and you are right...I might add that this is just one of many scriptures that conflict with the pre-trib theory.

Anonymous said...

Praise God! Holy Spirit lead. This understanding does not come from man, but from God through disernment of the Holy Spirit. You are a child of God with a willing heart seeking truth. God is pleased with you! God bless you and all of you! :) Have an ear and listen to what the Holy Spirit says. :)

Roger Armstrong said...

Thank you my friend

Truth Teller said...

Roger, forgive me for telling it like it is. But you have no idea how to interpret scripture.
It does no use to try and explain to you that the pre-trib rapture is the only view scripture supports. It is in fact YOU who takes scripture out of context.
You have this mindset and your pride that keeps you from having an open mind on this subject. Its not the Holy Spirit who has led you down this errant path, but rather some book you've read or some other errant person who's deceived you about this subject.You are just plain wrong and can only deceive people who are as bad as you are at interpreting scripture. Why don't you stop this FALSE teaching???

Thomas said...

To "truth teller". Your name should be "False Prophet". You and your deception is exactly what Jesus warned us to stay away from....

Anonymous said...

This is a good blog about the error of pretrib rapture. All of us should be objective when we read the word of God and not rely on man's opinion. George Eldon Ladd, a very respected Evangelical Professor from Fuller Theological Seminary wrote persuasively on the subject which he entitled The Blessed Hope. All should read it. Just a comment on year 1830. Here is the statement by Jerry Jenkins, author of Left behind: "I have seen evidence of mentions of the rapture doctrine from as far back as 1590, when a Jesuit, Francisco Ribera, taught the idea ...." (Taken from God Reports blog. Keep the good work.

Roger Armstrong said...

Yes, I agree, that's an excellent book: "The Blessed Hope" by George Eldon Ladd. I read this book years ago, long after I took the Post trib position. Thank you for your comment.

Truth Teller said...

Roger, you like to interpret scripture one or two verses at a time, without considering the context, or additional verses.And of course, when I ask you to explain even one verse, you are unable to do so,or put it into context.So lets just try one verse,(the way you like to "interpret"),Revelation 3:10, where God's Spirit is speaking to the seven churches;
Rev. 3:10;
"Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the Earth."

Open up your ears Roger, Revelation 3:13, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

The great tribulation is a JUDGEMENT from GOD for unbelief. Both Scripture and common sense pose the question, "Why would God punish the church for unbelief???

The answer of course is HE DOESN'T. The church will NOT go through the great tribulation, period....

I can't wait for your "interpretation" of these scriptures, or will you just delete your challengers?

Thomas said...

You are mistaken truthteller, we are not appointed to God's Wrath. See link below for clarification. ...


http://lastdayrapture.blogspot.com/2011/09/not-appointed-to-gods-wrath.html?m=1

Roger Armstrong said...

I agree with Thomas and might add: Rev.3:10, states ..."I will keep thee 'FROM'...He does NOT say...take thee 'OUT OF'...

Compare the above verse with John 17:15..."I (Jesus) pray NOT that thou should TAKE THEM OUT of the world, but KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL."

Jesus just said not to take them out of the world...this is called 'proving the Bible with the Bible.

Truth Teller said...

Roger, you're still blaspheming and displeasing God with your incompetent "interpretation".

I've never in my life seen such totally wrong "interpreting", and a person who cannot defend his positions such as you.

You are pathetic, and a FALSE "teacher".

Your website is more important to you than God's truth.

So sad!

sidrojoe said...

I Just wanted to encourage you to keep proclaiming the truth of God's word, concerning the second coming of Christ. I myself, have been standing against the pre-trib rapture doctrine for over 20 years. It is good every now and then, to be encouraged by someone who shares the same burden for the truth. It took over 180 years for this doctrine to be built into what it is today. Many, many layers must be peeled off before the core of truth can be revealed. It will take time, and patience, but if only one is recovered from this error, it will be worth the effort. God bless you, and keep up the good work. Sidney G.

Roger Armstrong said...

Thank you Sidney for your encouraging words. We will stand together. May God Bless you also. Roger

Anonymous said...

Brother, Brother.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,
If you would read the following verses that follow, it says that the devil is working at this time, but has not been revealed yet....Why? Because the Lord our God is still present. Only Then when the Holy Spirit is removed will he be able to be revealed, not any sooner. God promised us the counselor which is the Holy Ghost and that he would never leave us. If he left leaving us stranded to face the Trib. that would make him a liar, and that my friend he is NOT.
God Bless You My Brother see in Heaven sooner than you think.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hello my brother. Thank you for your comment, and your attitude is very good. I would disagree with your opinion of the "he" of 2 Thes.2:1-7 being the H.S. but rather the "he" is the man of sin (A.C.)

We are very clearly told in 2 Thes:2:3, that the A.C. comes first. So we are on the earth and will see this man of sin the A.C. no rapture here... however your version does sound nice...to bad there isn't a single scripture to support this (to go into all the details you would have to email me). Or we could just keep it simple in this comment section. God Bless you my friend. Saved by grace, Roger

ChrisMP. said...

A word in 1st Thessalonians 4;15 seems to be overlooked by most scholars of either side of the controversy and I believe this one word settles the whole dispute. The original Greek word is "parousia" or "coming" in the English translation. We who are alive at His second coming is how this text should read based on the true definition of "parousia". This word means literal presence and when it used concerning the return of Jesus Christ, it is always referring to the second coming of Jesus Christ. When the pretrib people use these verses to describe the pretrib rapture, they always add that this doesn't mention the actual physical presence of Jesus on the earth. If you include the whole text of 1st Thessalonians 4;15-17, then you can see that it obviously refers to His literal presence here on the earth not some fantasy calling away of the saints to the marriage supper of the lamb which won't happen until after the tribulation in Revelation chapter 19. Just this one word "parousia" in my opinion, refutes the whole pretrib rapture view. You can also find this word in Matthew 24:3 when the disciples ask Jesus about His second coming and the end of the age.

Roger Armstrong said...

That's interesting I didn't know that. 1st Thes.4:15-17, is just another reference to the 2nd coming after the trib just worded differently. Pre-trib people try to use this scripture because they can't find anything to build this pre-trib rapture on...it's all speculation. Very interesting on "parousia" thank you my friend.

Anonymous said...

I used to be a pre-trib fundamentalist, im still a fundamentalist and I think you might find that some of us have changed our views but I can not by into the belief that the rapture will occur post trib either, my stance will be this: after 3 1/2 years of the tribulation which may begin sometime this year closer to the end of the year I might add, then we the Church and those dead will be caught up in the clouds to meet our risen Saviour and then the very worst of the tribulation will take place thats were I stand as a literalist, the blood moon events this year are what most mainstream and even the non-christian peoples are preparing for this event gotta get to work.

Roger Armstrong said...

Thank you for your comment. You would hold to the "mid-trib" position. That would still mean "two" 2nd comings; which would also mean "two" resurrections...God's Word says there is only "one" and that takes place on the last day...

Jesus said in John6:40 'paraphrased' "..The resurrection is on the "Last Day" (one of several scriptures) So the rapture must follow this event i.e. resurrection/rapture on the Last Day. Roger

Anonymous said...

You Both are RIGHT snd Wanted you to know if youve never heard of Shepherds Chapel in Gravette Ark. GOD showed FAVOR to only 2churches Rev2:9 &3:9 because they taught who the Kenites Are. Shepherds Chapel has been teaching the same things you are saying Donna...for MANY yrs..They can fill in ALL the blanks so its ALL understood.
plain and simple:6trump/6seal/6vial Anti Christ appears CLAIMING to be Jesus to fool any believer of Rapture into believing HE is Jesus..First in field taken by AntiChrist!! JESUS returns at Lasr Trump (7)
Now That means that All the people who are fooled by Antichrist will be the ones Weeping and Nashing Teeth n Praying for Mountains to fall on them...
All because they took someone Elses word...and NOT studied for themselves...
I pray that Many Eyes and Ears are opened and turn to a Church that teaches GODS WORD...not someone elses!

Anonymous said...

JESUS returns at the 7th trump.....
Shepherds Chapel in Gravrtte Ark teaches this thru the manuscripts and ORIG KJV.

The newer translations adds to and takes away from GODS actual Words..

Roger Armstrong said...

Yes, Shepherds Chapel is very good on truth. Thank you for your comments.

Anonymous said...

Nobody knows, and your assumptions are run-of-the-mill, overused arguments.

For another, well studied point of view:
http://www.biblefood.com/raphist.html

There have been, are, and will be many Christian martyrs.

Aren't you glad that NOAH was spared from God's WRATH? (Which is what the 2nd half of the Tribulation is all about.)

New Testament writers clearly expected the return of Christ before the end - so stop being so sure of yourself, because neither you nor anyone else knows.

Satan loves all of your bickering. You could die in the next instant, so all that is really important is that you know him and where you are going.

Roger Armstrong said...

We are told to "Prove all things..." in 1st Thes.5:21, so the truth is important to God. This I believe I have done in my post.

My question to you is...Can you give me just one scripture that states we are taken out before the tribulation? Of course not! So how can you prove this as we are told to do?

Since most Christians believe in the pre-trib they will be going into this period of time unprepared. We are specifically told in 2nd Thes.2:3-4 (KJB), that the false Christ comes first.

Allen Beechick said...

Is it fair to ask, where is one Scripture that says the rapture (or the catching up of 1 Thess. 4:17) happens at the end of the tribulation?

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Allen, Yes I can list several... Matt.24:29-31... Mark 13:24-27... Luke 21:25-28... I Thes.4:15-17... II Thes.2:1-4... These are all the same event, it's one event, not two. And yes, we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air/clouds and then return with Him to the earth for the thousand year reign. There are more but it becomes redundant.

Man has decided to make the second coming into two events. Please contact me by email if you want all of the details.

Allen Beechick said...

Roger,

I understand that the "gathering" of Matt.24:29-31 happens "after the tribulation." That is clear, of course. I also understand that it is natural for our minds to connect that to the "catching up" of 1 Thess.4:17, because we are familiar with that passage. But for a moment, if we were to put ourselves into the shoes of the disciples on the Mount of Olives that day, would it just as natural, if not more natural, for their minds to connect the "gathering" to passages they were familiar with, namely the parallel passages in Isaiah? These Isaiah parallel passages speak of a "gathering" to Jerusalem and do not mention a "catching up" into the clouds. This leads me back to my original question: Is it fair to ask, where is one Scripture that says the rapture (or the catching up of 1 Thess. 4:17) happens at the end of the tribulation?

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen, OK, let's try to put the verse you used (I Thes.4:17) into the context of the verses right before verse 17... verses 13 through 16... In brief Paul is talking about the resurrection so verse 17, the "caught up" takes place after the resurrection.

So, we need to put the resurrection into a time slot... Jesus Himself tells us that the resurrection takes place on the "Last Day" in John 6:40 and 6:44. Therefore this "caught up" takes place after the resurrection on the Last Day... not 7 years before the last day. This clearly places the "caught up" after the tribulation which makes it no different than all of the verses that state "after the tribulation.

Allen Beechick said...

Roger,

I observe first of all that connecting the resurrection of 1 Thess. 4 with the last day of John 6 combines two passages to make the argument. It is not one verse. It is two verses connected. Now that is perfectly fine. I see nothing wrong with that. That is the same approach that we pre-tribs use. We also connect passages in order to make our argument. Having observed the similar approach that we both use, do you mind if I go on to discuss that connection a bit further? In addition to connecting the resurrection of 1 Thess. 4 with the resurrection of John 6, do you also connect it with the resurrection of Rev. 20? Are those three passages parallel? You rightly point out that the resurrection in 1 Thess. 4 happens before the rapture. May I likewise point out that the resurrection in Rev. 20 happens after the second coming? We agree that the order of events is important in 1 Thess. 4. May we also agree that the order of events is important in Rev. 20? If we follow the same logic in both passages, then we arrive at the conclusion that the resurrection of 1 Thess. 4 happens before the second coming and the resurrection of Rev. 20 happens after the second coming. So there is a last-day resurrection, no doubt about that. And you desire to strictly follow the order of events. I share that same desire.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the scriptures and views...........I so love them!!!!

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,
In my opinion, there can only be one first resurrection and Rev.20:5, specifically calls this the "first" resurrection. So, to your question, Yes, Rev.20:6, I Thes,4:16, and John 6;40, along with several more, are the same event. The King James interpreters also thought they were the same event:

The foot note in the KJB on Rev.20:5, refers this verse to John 6:40, they apparently thought they were the same event...

And the KJB refers I Thes.4:16, to Matt.24:30, and I Cor.15:52. When read in context you will notice the similarities.



Allen Beechick said...

I too think there is one first resurrection. You may be thinking, how can I say that? It's like this. Revelation 20 talks about the "first resurrection" and the "second death." The relation between the two is obvious. Both phrases occur in the same chapter. Both are set side by side in sharp contrast. "First" contrasts "second." And "resurrection" contrasts "death." Is there a second resurrection? No. Just a second death. Everyone belongs to one or the other. You and I and everyone else either belongs to the "first resurrection" or to the "second death." That is how Revelation 20 portrays it. Now, as we compare other passages, we think about other people who belong to the first resurrection who actually rose at an earlier time. For example, Christ arose earlier. Does the term "first resurrection" exclude Christ's resurrection? No, it simply contrasts "second death." How about the two witnesses during the tribulation who rose earlier? Does the term "first resurrection" exclude their earlier resurrection? No, it simply contrasts "second death." (By the way, I don't know if this is relevant or not, but the beast and the false prophet went to their second death earlier than most, but that does not imply a third death.) So the bottom line is the context in Revelation 20. This context governs how the words are used. The word "first" sets it apart from the "second death." Therein lies the contrast. To make a such a contrast as to rule out people rising earlier is not the point of the context. (By the way, if you were to rely on the KJB notes, do those notes explain why the resurrection of Revelation 20 happens after the second coming, in distinction to the resurrection of 1 Thess. 4 which happens before the second coming?)

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,
I can follow the picture you are presenting, but, at best, it's all founded on implications... as is I Thess.4:17. To found such a major doctrine as the pre-trib rapture on the assumption that the term "caught up" is different from the term "gather together" (and yes, I do use a Strong's concordance) In fact, it could be said that this scripture is one of the main corner stones that the pre-trib is built on, and maybe even the main one.

With all due respect to you as my Christian brother, can you give me a scripture that is not based on an assumption? You know I can give you several that the post trib is built on.

In II Thess.2:1-4, we are warned that the false Christ comes "first"
and not to be deceived. You are a teacher of God's Word, (I commend you for your masters degree) and we both know that we will have to account to God for what we teach.

Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,


I fully agree that the man of sin comes first, before the day of Christ, according to II Thess.2:1-4. Also, you are right that the pre-trib view is based on implications. I am merely pointing out, as in our discussion above, that the post-trib view also is based on implications. It is an implication that the day of Christ in II Thess. 2:2 is equivalent to the gathering. In Matthew 24:31 the stronger implication is that the gathering refers to the parallel passages in Isaiah that talk about the gathering to Jerusalem rather than to the catching up into the clouds. Why stronger? Because the parallel Isaiah passages match several phrases, not just a word or two, and because the disciples knew Isaiah and did not yet know Thessalonians, and because Jesus referred to Isaiah six times in that part of His discourse. The stronger implication is that the resurrection of Revelation 20 happens after the second coming of Revelation 19. If we could simply agree that both of our views rest upon implications, then we could approach each passage fresh to see where the context in each passage leads us. Having seen my website, may I suggest the Scripture Index link, http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/ScrIndex.htm, in order to find a discussion of specific passages.

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,
I read your "Common Ground and Agreement" page and I was pleasantly shocked to see this coming from a pre-trib person. The only thing I disagree with is the rapture timing and the people you said would live into the millennium... I believe it will be non Christians that survive the last day plagues that will populate this period. We will be taken out before God's Day of Wrath (long story).

I only had time to skip through some of your other work and agree that Genesis 1 and 2 overlap, also the middle chapters of Revelation overlap, and, I might add, this begins at chapter 6, and covers several chapters, it's one story told over again and again to the end of the story like layers of paint with each layer filling in different details all starting at chapter 6. This includes the seals, trumps and vials also.

I'm aware of most of the duel passages and prophecies in the Bible, but don't claim to know it all. In fact, you are closer to my understanding of the post-trib to anyone I've ever discussed this topic with or carried on a dialogue with... pre or post. I've done extensive Bible research several years ago, but in these past 8 years I have been committed to my very simple post that most Christians can understand and the email questions I receive are easy. I don't think I will deviate from this approach because that's where the vast majority perhaps 99% are... You would fall into the 1% and I might fall into the 20% group... if that makes any sense.

Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,

Thank you for your gracious comments and for the privilege of posting to your blog. Yes, I am different from most teachers of the pre-trib view. Many years ago when my brother gave me Gundry's post-trib book, The Church and the Tribulation, I found that I agreed with him more than I disagreed.

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,
Is your brother still post-trib? OK, I've been going over your Isaiah references and kinda brushing up on a lot I've forgotten and a lot of this is valid for use in recognizing Isaiah passages that are brought up in some New Testament passages. But, just to be brief, take Matt.24:29-31, this should be read as one paragraph (verse separation was added by man) and I'm going to paraphrase this:

(29) After the tribulation... heavens shaken, sun, moon, stars,(clearly last day events).

(30) And then shall appear Jesus coming in the clouds.

(31) And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and gather together His elect.

(32) Fig tree sign (when) Israel is a nation again.

(33) When you shall see all these things (what things? every thing described in the above Last Day events,

(34) This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled (what things? last day events that will be seen by the generation that's on the earth at this time).

It should be clear (no speculation) that this is the 2nd coming after the tribulation and is when the gathering of v-31 takes place and we can assume that the trumpet sound is the Last Trumpet (7th) that's mentioned in I Cor.15:52, (but since I assumed this was the last trumpet we'll leave it out, it won't change the main point of this.

Allen, the point I'm trying to make is that there is clear proof that there is ONE 2nd coming after the tribulation and the above proves it. This is just one passage of several that can be used as a foundation to build the post-trib rapture on, so we can use some speculation on other passages to build on this solid scripture.

I have great respect for you but I can't debate this on the intellectual level that you're on (masters degree). I think it would be fair to ask you for one solid scripture for a foundation so that you can build speculation on.


Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,

One solid Scripture? That is a common question asked of those who hold the pre-trib view. It is a fair question that deserves a straightforward answer. My approach is not to prove a pre-trib rapture, but rather to prove that the rapture cannot happen after the tribulation. Scripture has many proofs that the rapture cannot happen after the tribulation. But you asked for one solid Scripture, and so for the purpose of this blog I will reply with the same Scripture that you rely on as your most solid Scripture, namely Matt. 24:29-31. Matthew does give us the first extensive teaching of the second coming in the New Testament, and how we understand it shapes the rest. So let me say three things about this passage. First, one of my previous posts summarizes why the stronger implication is that the gathering here refers to the gathering of elect Israel back to her land that is described in Isaiah. Thinking about this overnight, I would even say that Isaiah is not so much an implication, but rather the default connection, the most natural connection that the disciples would make, and for us to bypass Isaiah and to make a connection instead to yet unwritten Thessalonians would be more like an implication. Second, to get a better handle on the Matthew-Isaiah connection see http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/Intro/OldCommentary.htm. And third, the gathering mentioned in Matthew 24 cannot be the rapture gathering, because the order of gatherings at the end of the tribulation is the reverse of the rapture order (see Matthew 13 and http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/Book/First.htm).

All these observations (like Isaiah and Matthew 13) came through simple reading, not through my degree. I believe the Bible is understandable to everyone.

As for my brother, to answer your question, I haven't outright asked him, but I think over the years he gradually became pre-trib as he noticed that no one stepped forward to answer the arguments I put forth.

Thomas said...

Allen, The Bible is clear and easy to understand. There is ONE gathering on the last day.
What you are proposing is difficult to understand, and certainly needs mental gymnastics to see.

If your version was correct, you wouldn't need dozens of sentences to explain it.

Roger Armstrong said...

Brother Allen,
I will look into those links you listed a few days from now because I'll be very busy next two days, but in the meantime, to give you my idea of how we will be sparred from the most severe plagues that I believe will fall on God's Day(s)of Wrath and we are protected from all of the previous plagues... however, we will be subject to mans wrath as much as God will allow.

On my main page, at the end there is a link titled Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, just click on it and all you have to do is look at the first three pages, has a chart. This is the only link that I left a one paragraph disclaimer on, because I go into speculation and make that clear. Or just go to http://4horsemen4.blogspot.com/

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,
I've been going over some of your articles including "What event is first" (or words to that effect). And I can see your point but this would pose a problem for both pre and post. In the tares parable, Matt.24,24-30, "world" is translated "age" in the Greek... so, more than likely means end of tribulation inferring that the tares are taken first. And in the parable of the "net" Matt.24:48, the good fish were taken first then the bad were cast away. However, in the next verse (49) the bad were taken first and the good second. But I don't think the order they were listed is important, but the end result is... for instance, on a shopping list you started writing items down as you thought of them, then at the store you didn't use this order you just tossed these items in as you went down the isle. So only the end result was important not the order they were listed. Just as the seals, trumps, and vials will not be executed in the order they were listed but the end result will be the same.

In my opinion Matt.24:29-31, is the end result, not the order listed in the tares and fish. These verses (Matt.24:29-31) are very clear and strong; (29)First the tribulation, then last day events... Sun, Moon, stars, etc. (30) Jesus coming in the clouds. (31) He shall gather together His elect. This coming is clearly after the tribulation, not before.

Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,

Thank you for reading the chapter about Matthew 13 about the order of events. I will not argue the same points again here. But maybe I can just ask a question so that you can clarify what you believe about the order of events. In Matthew 24, what is the order of events? When does the world see Him coming in the clouds? (I'm not asking about seeing the sign of the Son of man. I'm asking about the coming in the clouds.) Do they see Him coming in the clouds before He gathers the elect? Or do they see Him coming in the clouds after He gathers the elect?

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,

I believe this to be one big event taking place in a certain order, and the short version is that it takes place at the 6th seal (Rev.6:12-17) which opens the Last Day. To start this day the two witness (Rev.11:8-13) are raised when Jesus appears in the clouds with a great voice telling these two to 'come up hither' and the resurrection/rapture happens at this same time, we are either resurrected or changed (if living) saints of all time are in this resurrection and all will see Him we will all be gathered at this time and will see Him in the clouds (lower air heaven) and then gathered to Him in the clouds and placed on the sea of glass...

... as John described it... "And I saw as it were (like) a sea of glass... and them that had gotten the victory over the beast (AC) and over his image and over his mark... standing on the sea of glass..." (Rev.15:2 KJV) At the end of this long day we return with Jesus (after Gods Day of Wrath back to the earth for the wedding supper and the millennium.

The direct answer would be just moments after the gathering, or during, we/all will see Him in the clouds and then taken up to Him. All my opinion...



Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,

Thank you for that. Do I understand correctly that we (believers) will see Him "after the gathering, or during"? Now, to clarify, when will the world (unbelievers) see Him coming with clouds? Do they see Him coming in the clouds before He gathers the elect? Or do they see Him coming in the clouds after He gathers the elect?

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,

I don't think anyone knows this sequence because only half of the world (Christians and non) could see Him coming in the lower heavens (clouds) before the gathering so I guess this will be the case. And after the gathering just the Christians would all see Him at the same time (along with the resurrected saints). Yes, this is an assumption because I felt every detail to be unimportant because my main point is to get people prepared to go through most of these 7 years, especially the last 3 1/2 years, up to the last day.

Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,

Thank you for the explanation. That helps me understand where you are coming from. As I understand it, you take the phrase in Matthew 24 "after the tribulation" as your clear starting point. The order of events elsewhere does not matter as much, but that order ("after the tribulation") really matters. If you want to understand where I am coming from, I agree with the order "after the tribulation" and I also agree with the other Scriptures that mention the order of events. I agree with Matt. 24:30-31 where the gathering is mentioned last, after they see Him coming in the clouds (which makes sense if this gathering is the same gathering mentioned in Isaiah, the gathering to the land, the gathering to Jerusalem). Also I agree with the order of events in Matthew 13 (where you said the order of events is not important). Also I agree with the order of events in Revelation 19-20 where the resurrection happens after the second coming (where I suspect you might say that the order of events is written out of order).

So in each case, Scripture by Scripture, I agree with the order of events as written. That's where I am coming from. Of course, you don't have to agree with me. All I'm asking is that you understand where I am coming from and know that at least I rest on Scripture and am not making up my own order of events. You have been cordial in our interaction. Thank you. I am not asking for agreement. I merely ask for understanding, that if you do not agree, at least you may understand why I believe what I believe.

Roger Armstrong said...

Brother Allen,

I see your point about the order of events, but, if I'm not mistaken, you believe the good are taken first at a pre trib gathering, and then the bad are taken first after the tribulation, then those who converted during the tribulation will live into the millennium after the 2nd coming... I think? Of course who populates the earth in their physical bodies is very difficult to understand.

You have been very cordial as well. Thank you.

Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,

Yes, good summary. You stated my view correctly.

Roger Armstrong said...

Brother Allen,

If you would like to discuss this more please contact me via email. It's too difficult to carry on a long dialogue in this comment section.

Roger

Cindy said...

Only God knows all truth, we know that the wisdom of men is foolishness with god, it may be that the antichrist is already here. I speak out for God our father, Jesus Christ our Lord and the Holy Spirit for us all to be in UNITY!!! God's words say to pursue peace with ALL men or we will not see GOD

Roger Armstrong said...

Thank you for your comment Cindy, and, believe it or not, I agree with you. However, first, we must agree only if it is proven to be true... 1st Thes.5:21 (KJV) says to "prove all things..."

Christine LaRocca said...

Hello. I think the confusion is that people are mixing up The Rapture of the Church with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Rapture occurs first, keeping His beloved followers, The Church, from the "hour of trial" that is going to come upon the earth. Note that the punishment that is to come is not for the Church. It is for the unbelievers. Happy events will occur in Heaven for His Glorious Church while the earth goes through the 7 years of tribulation. The last 3.5 years is called "The Great Tribulation." After the 7 year tribulation period, Jesus returns WITH His Church for the Battle at Armageddon.
There are many Scripture verses to back this up. (Seek and you will find.) Think about it...if The Rapture took place at The Second Coming,
where is the Church during the Battle at Armageddon? Would it make sense for The LORD to punish his faithful Church, then take them up to meet him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18)just to bring them right back down to earth for the Battle? Please keep studying, and you will find all the answers you need. There are two events, and only one of them is The Second Coming of Christ. The Rapture is not that event. Thank you.

Christine LaRocca said...

I've already commented, but I'd like to ad something. After the Church is taken up, there will be others who come to Christ and will be saved. Some of you are thinking that it is the current Church, the Glorious Church, who will suffer those things mentioned. Not so. There will be a number of people (144,000 of them Jews) who will be saved, after The Church is taken up ("raptured"). I'll leave you with this, and I hope it helps: Revelation 3:10 reads: "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you FROM the hour of trial which will come upon the whole earth to test those who dwell on the earth." The ones who persevere are not just those who become believers who on the earth during the Tribulation period. See how many must persevere in today's world. Not all have a "cushy life." Look at the persecution all around the world that believers endure. Thank you.

Roger Armstrong said...

Dear Christine, thank you for you comments. No, we are not mixing up the rapture with the second coming. The term "rapture" can not be found in any Bible translation... also you have stated that there 'are two events' inferring to the second coming. Can you give me the scripture where you found this? We are clearly told in several places the second coming is after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-26) just to list one of many. Never are we told 'before' or that this is two events.

My dear Christian sister we are not told anywhere in the entire Bible that Jesus will take us out before the tribulation, this was added to the footnotes in the Scofield bible and then taught as the truth ever since... it's not in God's Word! Please read our main page again. Also we do cover Rev.3:10, just scroll down to #3 of nine.

Anonymous said...

There does seem to be a higher way of experiencing revelation and the meanings in the Bible for personal experience.

https://luciferexperimentblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/3degrees351.jpg

Anonymous said...

Scriptures that destroyed the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine:

Rev. 21:9 is about The New Jerusalem, the Bride, the Wife (Married already) of the Lamb (this is after the end of the Millennium, and start of the New Heaven and New Earth)

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
(I hope we don’t have another bride in mind, like what pretribbers did to Matthew 24:29,30, making it the second rapture/resurrection, which they say is still an integral part of the first resurrection of Rev. 20. Jesus will get His Bride one time only, not several times)

Question:
Why does it have to be ONE OF THE SEVEN ANGELS WHO HAD THE SEVEN BOWLS, be the one appointed by Jesus to show to John the Bride? Why not one of the seven angels who had the trumpets, or Michael, or Gabriel, or any other Angels?

Answer:
Checkout Rev. 16:12-15
12 THE SIXTH ANGEL POUR OUT HIS BOWL on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold I come like a THIEF! BLESSED is the ONE who stays awake (WISE VIRGINS? AND/OR THE WEDDING GUESTS?) and remains clothed (OIL/HOLY SPIRIT), so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Matthew 22

Anonymous said...

To make the above more logically valid, here is another scriptures to back it up:

Rev. 16:17-19
17 The SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his BOWL into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered BABYLON THE GREAT and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Rev. 17:1
17 ONE of the SEVEN ANGELS who had the SEVEN BOWLS came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the GREAT PROSTITUTE, who sits by many waters.

Your Brother in Christ,

eaglet,
roderickmcruz@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

THE HALF HOUR SILENCE IN HEAVEN IS THE MILLENNIUM
The half hour of silence is the thousand years or the millennium because of 1 John 2:18.
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

The above verse talks about the last hour and about the coming of the final antichrist. John also mentioned that even in his time there were already many antichrists. So if we will take into consideration that the final antichrist will appear in our time, then the time difference will be around 2,000 years. This means that the last hour is 2,000 years in duration, so obviously, half an hour is a thousand years, and silence means peace in Heaven and on earth (Satan is imprisoned in the abyss for a thousand years).

This makes it more a credible assumption because the last hour and the half hour were both mentioned by John in his books 1 John 2:18 and Revelation 8:1.

YBIC,

eaglet

Anonymous said...

The Trumpet Judgement will happen at the end of the Millennium.

Here are the parallel scriptures within the Book of Revelation:

A. Revelation 11:18 – Trumpets
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:12-13 – Millennium
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

B. Revelation 11:7 – Trumpets
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Revelation 9:11 – Trumpets
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Revelation 20:1-2 – Millennium
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (42 months)

Satan = Devil = Dragon = Beast = Angel = Old Serpent = Apollyon = Abaddon = Destroyer

Abyss = Bottomless Pit

The Dead is not The Dead in Christ

Revelation 20:5
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of the Dead in Christ

The second resurrection is the resurrection of the Dead

YBIC,

eaglet

Anonymous said...

THE TRUTH ABOUT THE BEAST/ANTICHRIST:

Consider the following points:

1. Dragon/Satan - Seven Heads with CROWNS and Ten Horns
Beast out of the Sea - Seven Heads and Ten Horns with CROWNS/Antichrist
Beast out of the Earth - Two Horns/Two False Prophet

2. Crowns signifies POWER and RULE

3. Seven Heads are the empires (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Revived Roman Empire) that will RULE the earth from Egypt to the last empire in the great tribulation, the Revived Roman Empire, having the influence of Satan/Antichrist Spirit in every empire.

4. Ten Horns are the ten kingdoms of the last Beast/Antichrist Empire that will be given POWER to RULE with the Beast out of the Sea/Antichrist in the great tribulation.

5. Two Horns like a Lamb - False Prophets of the Beast out of the Sea/Antichrist in the Great Tribulation. Satan's counterfeit of the Two Witness at the false 3.5 years great tribulation.

6. Satan is the Original Antichrist from the beginning of time. Anti in thesaurus means opposing, against, hostile, averse, defiant, unwilling, challenging, antagonistic, resistant. This can be found evident in Revelation 12. From the time of Jacob/Israel and the forming of the 12 tribes, the first empire that RULED that time was the Egyptians.

7. In Revelation 13, the Seven kings are Seven Antichrists figures ruling their respective empires and 5 were/ 1 was/1 will be indwelt by Satan (ex. Satan entered in to Judas when he betrayed Jesus)

8. The Eight King is Satan himself at the end of the millennium who belong to the Seven (heads/empires), who is the beast, who once was, now is not, and will come out of the Abyss and go to his destruction at the end of the millennium. The people who was not found in the book of life and does not have the seal of God in their foreheads (deceived by Satan at the end of the millennium) was amazed that Satan came back again, because he once was long time ago, and was not after the great tribulation / wrath / armageddon, yet will come again at the end of the millennium.

9. Satan will lead as Gog at the end of the millennium, the deceived nations, Magog (200 million army?), to attack the camp of the saints, who has the seal of God on their foreheads, at God's Beloved City.

Continued...

Anonymous said...

Continuation...

10. This is my theory on the Army of Locust:
a. The Locusts are fallen angels bound in the abyss together with Satan during the entire millennium.
b. They were released at the end of the millennium to torture the nations except the saints who has the seal of God on their foreheads.
c. The deception of Satan, the beast that come out of the abyss, is that he will convince the nations to fight against God's saints. Because from the saints will come the two witnesses that will cause the plagues of the first four trumpets judgement that the nation will endure and curse.
d. With all the nations that will have to endure the plagues, it will be easy for Satan, the Beast that come out of the Abyss, to convince them, given also the astonishing wonders such as Satan coming back to life again (once was, now is not, yet will come) and showing his might through his army of Locusts/Fallen Angels, and which the people horribly experienced the power of the Locusts/Fallen Angels, they were made to believe that they can defeat the saints and the two witnesses if they will join forces together.
e. The reason why Satan does not want to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, is because he doesn't want to destroy the earth and the people that he planned to rule on to, together with his fallen angels, because Satan and his minions can not recreate the earth again and he has no place anymore in Heaven.
f. There was also written in the Old Testament about those nations in the millennium (including the remnant jews) who will not come to worship in the Holy Mountain/City, will not have rain in their places. Maybe they also got fed up with following all the laws that were instituted by Christ the King and enforced by the saints (royal priesthood/intercessor/judges between the nations and Christ the King who are in the Throne in Heaven, Rev. 20:6).

YBIC,

eaglet

Roger Armstrong said...

To eaglet, my brother in Christ... I have read all of your comments/statements, and found them to be very interesting. I do have a few links on my main page that do go into these different topics, however, this is off the subject matter of this particular post of mine, and, although interesting, is very lengthy. My main drive is to make Christians aware of the fact that we won't be raptured out (before) the 7 year tribulation, so need to prepare to go through.

You are apparently well studied in these complex areas of God's Word, and I do agree with a few of the points you have presented. If you would like I would be glad to discuss a few of these topics via email, as this would be to lengthy for this comment section, and really not important to readers that are interested in the pre or post rapture question. Thank you, and God Bless... Roger

brother john said...

The word"rapture"is misleading,it is better defined as a resurrection.
1 Cor 15:20-28 says that there are only 2 resurrections.
The first is when Jesus rose(first fruits),the second at his coming.
Then Jesus delivers the (completed)kingdom to the Father after death is destroyed.
This same sequence is found in Rev 20. 2 resurrections then death is destroyed.
It says in 1 Cor 15:52-54 that after the last (7th)trumpet death is destroyed.
There cannot be a time after death is destroyed that an earthly reign takes place (1ooo year reign) with a revolt by Satan,and then death is destroyed again.
Prelim teaches not two, but several resurrections,I have heard as many as seven.
All the events on earth must take place between the two resurrections.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi John, yes, the word Rapture is misleading and really shouldn't be used at all... it was the word invented by pre-trib people to divide the 2nd coming into two events separated by seven years... the resurrection and the 2nd coming are "one event"... after the tribulation.

However, you refer to I Cor.15:20, as the first resurrection, when, in fact, I believe that this event (Christ resurrection) is just a precursor for the first resurrection where the saints of all time are raised at the Last Trump in this same chapter verse 52, after the tribulation.

Furthermore, Revelation 20:5, states ".. This is the first resurrection and goes on to say in verse 6, Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection.." This is the one we, and saints of all time, must be in! (Otherwise we won't be blessed) Then we meet Jesus in the cloud area of the sky, return to the earth with Him.. the wedding supper.. then go into the millennium. It is after this 1000yr period that the second resurrection takes place.

You must read the entire 20th chapter to put all of this in context... clearly both resurrections take place in this chapter, separated by 1000yrs (Rev.20:1-15).

My opinion... Roger

Anonymous said...

There is NO RAPTURE.
Those that died in Christ, (which billions asleep now over centuries have NOT died in Christ) will rise, yet those still alive that follow God's laws, keeping the Sabbath Holy, will change in a Twinkling of an eye. Both, same time. Dead in Christ, and those in God's Laws, change.
No rapture.

Yet before the 3.5 - 5.5 years of TRIBULATION STARTS, those following God's laws, called, will be notified to go to "the place of safety" I believe people mess that up with people missing, rapture.

There is no rapture, you must die if you live, it is written. We all will die, unless it is that time.

Roger Armstrong said...

My dear Anonymous friend... Do you really think that you can 'keep the Sabbath' as required under the law of Moses? When, in fact, no one has ever been able to do so, even in the Old Testament times. Do you not know that as a Sabbath keeper in todays modern world, you would have to keep the same laws, and just to list a few... Whosoever does any work on this day must be put to death (Ex.35:2)... and he must be stoned to death (Num.15:36)... even for gathering firewood... (or like taking out the trash) you can't even light a fire in your house to keep warm (Ex.35:3). You can't even leave your house on the Sabbath (Ex.16:29).

The Sabbath day keepers of today, can not, and do not, keep this law; all of them have broken this one alone... and how many of them have been stoned to death, as required under this law?... like... none! So, you and all of the other 7th Day Adventist's have broken this law because you must stone him (them) to death... and you didn't do this... You wouldn't even think of this... yet, you must it's the law!

God knew they (nor us) could not keep this law and that is why Christ had to die in our place, to release us from this law, otherwise there would be no one to raise in the First Resurrection, as stated in I Cor.15:51-52, if this was only for those who keep the law of Moses... are you inferring that because you TRY to keep the law of moses this makes you worthy to rise in the First Resurrection? If so, Christ suffered and died for nothing... you don't need Him?

Saints of all time will rise in this Resurrection, including those who tried, but couldn't keep the law of Moses, Christ died for them in their place because they couldn't keep it! He died for all of us, there will be no special Law keepers in this resurrection, we are all the same... furthermore for the rest of us who may differ in topics like the pre-trib or post-trib...etc., He died for us no matter what our views might be on minor topics as long as we have accepted Him as our Savior and Lord and this covers all of our sins... we are free because of Jesus Christ only... He is our Sabbath!! "Let no man judge you of holy days, etc, etc, OR OF THE SABBATHS.." (Col.2:16).

mitch in california said...

today's date: 7-1-2016

As a Christian, having been born again, (accepting Christ as my personal Savior and knowing He is the Son of God for almost 60 years) I find this series of commentary very interesting. The earliest comments beginning 2012 and still going on this date. Personally, I have been "taught" that the "pre-trib" was correct and that we, Christians would escape the Great Tribulation. Reading the Word and applying it to our daily lives is what we are also taught. After reading these many comments, I believe I can accept the possibility of the "post-trib" rapture. As a "seed planter" for many years, I don't know that this discussion has ever been a significant part of sharing the Good News. In fact I don't even think about it as being critical to the sharing of what the purpose of Christ's death on the cross is to each of us, and to those who are still lost, or who have never accepting Him as their Savior.

While I believe we should share the Truth about Christ and the many teachings in the Bible, we may not need to argue over this "pre-or post trib" issue. For me, whether Christ takes us up before the 7 years or after is not the most important teaching that should consume our time. In many ways, after reading 4 years of commentary on this subject I believe our time would be better served if we were learning how to be a better seed planter. As Christians we will be known by our love, and when you are old, and your time is short, sharing Christ in whatever time we have left is the most important.

We talk about the end times, yet whether we live to age 25 or 125, we have limited time on this earth. And since we will all "die" death will mark the "end time" for us and then we will be living with Christ for eternity. We will all be changed.

So, in closing I want to question one comment that was made about Christians taking the mark of the beast in the tribulation...and that was that they would be lost. Now my thought about that stems from Romans 37-39, and basically that if those who are truly "born again" takes the mark of the beast "they" will be separated from the love of God and in the same sense removed from the eternity promised to those who do believe in Christ. It's confusing because for decades I've believed that once we are "saved" nothing will keep us from spending eternity with Christ in the Heaven. And while I would agree that we are not to take the "mark" it may be that some will...even though warned not to do so. Will they truly be "lost" if they do, and that Romans 37-39 does not apply to them?

my name by the way is "Mitchell" and I sign as "mitchincalifornia" when posting comments. and my email address is also shown in my identity.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Mitch, first off, I commend you on your Christian attitude and thank you for reading my post. I agree with you we should share the truth about Christ, this is first and foremost and why I share my testimony at the top of my post... top right column. One of these truths is in 2th Thessalonians 2:1-5, we are clearly told that before we can be gathered together by Christ, the false Christ Must come first... a warning to be prepared for this event so as not to be deceived by this devil incarnated man into worshiping him, or taking the mark, etc.

Furthermore, if we do so, we are then told (warned) in the context of Revelation 14:9-11, that we would be Forever Lost (no Eternal Security here) Also read the previous chapter to this in Rev.13:11-16, both of these chapters should be read as one (chapter and verse separation added by man). In reading these two chapters I think you would agree that this Truth is very important.

I could go on and on, as I'm sure you could do as well. I would love to discuss this further with you either in this comment section or via email. God Bless you my friend... Roger

Lee Silber said...

Rapture will come any second Jesus want' s his true son's and daughters in heaven before the 7 year tribulation, please teach this!!! What will happen after the rapture? leesilber2016@gmail.com

Tammy L said...

Hi Roger I have been asked to place some very good scripture here by one of our friends, that shows with Jesus own words the fact of a post tribulation resurrection/rapture.

John 6:39,40,44,54, and John 11:21-24
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Then Does someone else know of this information?Yes there is Lazarus sister,
21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Then we head on over to 2 Thess 2:1-4
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Now three questions that people have to answer here is who, when, and how many will be resurrected and raptured.

Also something that must be added which the pre tribulation people love to usebut makes more sense with a post tribulation resurrection/rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

now Jesus Himself said that He would resurrect His own on the last day, Paul in these verses tells us something we must pay attention to, We will not precede those dead in Christ they will be resurrected first then we which are alive and remain shall be taken up to be with those resurrected thus the rapture.

There is only two resurrections they are the first one at Christs coming, and the second one will be after the millennial reign, where all peoples who have died will be resurrected and judged and then they get thrown in hell, and death and hell get thrown into the lake of fire.

There is also the fact that pre tribbers say that He comes as a thief but He shows in Revelation 16:15 that He has not as of yet come as a thief but is coming as a thief this is said right before the 7th vial is poured out, So His coming is going to be extremely noisy everyone across the planet will see it happening.

Blessings to you and Heide!
Tammy

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Tammy, good to hear from you, and yes, I agree with you on all of the points you mentioned... the last ones first: I agree the Bible is very clear that there are only two resurrections... we want to be part of the first and not the second after the Millennium. And you perfectly explained I Thes.4:13-17, the pre-trib teachers have twisted this to fit their view.

On II Thes.2:1-4, conclusive proof that the false Christ comes first and I have this on the front page of my post third paragraph down.

And on the references to the 'Last Day' in John 6:40, 6:44, etc., (also conclusive proof, I have this one listed under The Parable of the Ten Virgins, Mat.25:1-13, on about the third page. However, you went into more detail and, I might add, you presented all of those topics very well... clearly conclusive proof, a person has to go into mental gymnastics not see these truths.

Thanks for your comments and I going to assume you are doing well... Heide and I are doing OK... at our age you no longer say 'Great' haha.



Roger Armstrong said...

Thank you Tammy, as I have no time to respond to this man of many words. Furthermore, I can't think of a more qualified person to address this topic or any other Bible topic as well.

Tammy L said...

Thank you so very much my friend and brother for that compliment and great encouragement. You were very instrumental my dear brother in helping me tie up some loose ends I had. Which is exactly when the Father had me find you and introduced us to each other. God is so amazing and wonderful and He does not mind showing us one another to help us along on this journey of our learning to walk deeper in Him.

We all see everything from different perspectives, but there is only one way and that is God's way. The journey is about learning to lean on Him and allow Him to teach us His will ways and how to trust Him and walk in obedience. We need one another to see and hear from other peoples testimonies. That's why we fellowship, so that we can have other perspectives.

I have found that people who don't try to teach other people, just share what the Lord is teaching us at the time, don't know they're actually teaching at that moment. It is when I am just relating the myriad things the Lord does for me and shows me, that i find people are impacted the most.

I love God so much and just want other people to know the Truth who is Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh! We must know the truth of the word in order to be truly completely free, in Christ. Also in order to be called His we must know HIM all of Him that we can find in the word, and then He supplies the rest, of who He is in tiny bursts of understanding and knowledge about Himself that He plants in your heart.

I am keeping you and Heide in prayer love you much my dear brother in Christ and your precious wife too.
Let's just agree in prayer that Randy Lewis is going to find the truth that He truly has been called to the truth, and will know that this is not correct whatever this gibberish is he is going on about. Let's agree that God will open his eyes to see and his ears to hear what the Holy Spirit would have him to see and hear, truth straight forward and honest.

Denise said...

I was a pre-trib believer for 20 years. About 2 years ago I began reading parts of the Bible (the minor prophets) and realized that many things I was told , just didn't add up. The more I read and compared , the more I realized that I had been lied to. I know that there are Christians that sincerely believe this and are teaching it , which to me is heart breaking. So many deceived. This doctrine makes Christians lazy , by thinking there will be a second chance - just in case they or someone they love doesn't make "the rapture". I have corrected my own error - what I taught my children and older grandchildren - and explained the history behind the rapture lie. This is so devastating. Thank you for this excellent rebuttal. I also question the 70th week of Daniel theory as well. It doesn't add up either. In Daniel chpt.9 , why would verse 26 be clearly talking about Jesus (Messiah) and in verse 27 , suddenly be referring to the anti-Christ. That doesn't make sense. Especially if you consider that sacrifices and offerings ended when Jesus died. I am still researching this. Anyway , thank you for blowing the rapture doctrine out of the water. Now to convince those who believe it.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Denise, Thank you for your kind words. Your question referring to Dan.9:26-27 (?) these two verses should be read as one long paragraph because chapter and verse separation was added by man. The first few lines of v-26: talking about Jesus Christ, the last several lines of this verse (26) is talking about the anti-Christ: beginning with "and the people of the prince (anti-Christ) that shall come...etc" Therefore, v-27, is still talking about this very same person (half man, half demon).

So the "he" in v-27, is the same entity as in v-26. The sacrifices will be those done by the Jewish priests that will begin only after the temple is rebuilt probably take several months even working around the clock. At the mid-point of this 7 year period "he" AC will break the covenant, and the sacrifices will cease. Very difficult to explain in the limited space of this comment section. Hope this helps - Roger

otis shinault said...

amen brother that's what I was taught we want know the day hour the minute or the second so preach on brother god bless you