Endtimes Conference Proves Post-Trib Rapture


     Bible verses used to prove the "Pre-Tribulation" Rapture,
                  instead  proves this event to be false  ...


     ... at this Calvary Chapel Men's Conference on March
3rd, '07,
held at Little Country Church in Redding, California, and attended  by 800 + men.  Here, the  Pre -Tribulation  Rapture  was  taught   where  (they claim)  all Christians  are removed from the earth  seven years prior  to  the  true  Second Coming of Christ  that clearly takes place after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-26). So, the aforementioned  pre-trib event would involve manifest contradiction- Two Second Comings?  

                                    (place cursor on above verse, and verses through-out)


Furthermore,  there is not a scripture in the entire Bible that states
Christians are removed  before the tribulation. This  extra event  is
documented to have begun in the 1830s (we cover this later). So, in
the 1800 years  prior to this time were all of the great church fathers
such as: (see quotes by) Justin Martyr (98-167),Tertullian (150-220)  Cyprian (201-258)   Augustine (354-430), etc.... Not smart enough to figure out  that the church would  not  be on the earth to face the Antichristbut instead be taken out in a pre-trib rapture... Not smart enough? ....  for 1800 years?


       Also consider
: 
We are specifically told in II Thes.2:3-4 KJV, 
       that the false christ comes first.  (Place cursor on verse)



The three senior pastors  who spoke at this  Endtime Conference
used  nine  scriptures  to prove the  pre-trib  rapture.   However,
out of the nine they used, seven were taken out of context,  and
the other two were based on assumptions............ Below are the  
 Nine scriptures  they thought were the best to support their view, 
and below each a brief explanation, with scripture reference, that
show they were twisted to fit the false  pre-trib  theory. We have
listed them in the exact same order they were presented that day:


                    1  of  9 ...I Corinthians 15:51-52


51"Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, 
at the  last trump;  for the trumpet shall sound,  and the  dead       
shall  be  raised  incorruptible, and  we  shall  be  changed."

Read verse 52 in the above very slowly, think about the order
(sequence) God inspired Paul to list these  three events:


1 __At the  last trump  (i.e., the 7th). 

2 __The  dead shall be raised   (first Resurrection).


3 __And we shall be changed   (raptured).


So, does the Bible tell us when the resurrection will take place?
Yes! Jesus Himself tells us in John 6:40, and John 6:44, that the
 Resurrection  is on the Last day  (see also John 11:24). So, if
the Resurrection is on the Last Day, as stated by Jesus,  and in
I Cor.15:52,  Paul  lists  the  Rapture  after  the  Resurrection
Paul  has  told  us  the  "sequence" of these 3 events and Jesus
told us "when".... On the  Last Day! ....          Note #1----->


....Is this such a difficult concept to comprehend? Clearly, these
two verses teach a Post-Tribulation Rapture  at the Second
Coming of ChristHow can the  Last Trumpet sound__then
the__Resurrection of the dead (in Christ), and the__Rapture,
all take place  seven  years __before__ the Last Day?



                    2  of  9
 ...
 I Thessalonians 4:16


"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,  and with the trump  of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

Again the word  "trump"  is used,  but the Thessalonians  were
unclear as to "when" this would happen. Paul apparently heard
that they were troubled about this, so he then wrote a  second
letter to clear this up, and this reads as follows:


II Thessalonians 2:1-4, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,  and our
gathering
together (
i.e. rapture) unto him,         2   That ye be not soon
shaken in mind,_or be troubled,_neither by spirit,_or by word,
nor by letter from us, _as that the _day of Christ_ is at hand.
 3  Let no man_deceive you_by any means:   for__ that
day
shall not come_
except there come a *falling away  first, and
that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" ( false christ).


*Falling away,  
is #646  "APOSTASIA"  in the Strong's  (Greek)
 Concordance, and translates "Defection from the truth, apostasy."




In this  second letter Paul, this time  makes it  very clear that
the false christ comes first and, (v-3) not to let anyone deceive
you. Then, referring back to the first letter he wrote,"Then (after
the false Christ)  the Lord descends,  with a shout,  with the voice
of the arch angel, with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise  first."  This  is  the second coming of Christ,  after the
tribulation. So, with this  second letter  Paul is making it clear
that this trump is not  before  the tribulation it's after.  It's a
post-trib rapture, at the Last Trump, on the  Last Day!



                    3  of  9 ...
 Revelation 3:10


"Because thou has kept the word of my patience,   I also  will
keep thee from the hour of temptation, that shall come upon
all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth."



Notice that Jesus says, "....I will keep thee from...." He does
not say, "...take thee out of..."  So, for a better understanding
of  Rev.3:10 KJV, Let's prove the Bible, with the Bible, and not
assume anything._ Let's let Jesus clarify this verse, which He
does in John 17:15 KJV, "I pray not that thou take them out of
the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil." 


Jesus  clearly says___not  to take them out__in John 17:15.
So, how can the__I will keep thee from__in Rev.3:10__mean
"I will take thee out of ?"  


(The Greek interpretation of "Keep thee  from"    Note #3--->


God's wrath does not fall on us,"only those who have the mark
of the beast" (Rev 16:2). And those who  "do not have the seal
of God" (Rev 9:4). Like the "144 thousand" of Rev. 7:3, we have
the seal of God._ See Eph.1:13 "...after you believed, you were
sealed......" And Eph.4:30 "......you are sealed unto the day of
redemption." There are several verses that clearly state, after we
accept Christ, we are sealed, (protected from God's wrath).



                                     4  of  9 ... Matthew 24:27

"For as the lighting cometh out of the east,  and shineth even
unto the west; so shall also the coming of the son of man be."
 



Go down two verses,  Matt.24:29 tells you  "when"  this will  be:
"Immediately__ after the tribulation__ of those days..."  Now
Matt.24:30 "...then shall appear the sign of the son of man..."
Now, Matt.24:31, "...with the great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall gather together (
rapture) his elect......"    Again the

same trumpet as in other verses, now back to Matt.24:26, Jesus
tells them not to believe people that tell you that He  (Jesus)  is
in a secret place (like a secret pre-trib rapture). So, the above
verse... Matt.24:27,  as you can see, was clearly taken out of
the context of the scriptures before and after this verse.



                    5  of  9 ... Matthew 25:1-13


The parable of the "ten virgins" ___ Here  Jesus  does not
talk about the "time" of His return,  because He had just told
them a few minutes before about the time, (see the paragraph
before this one Matt.24:29 definitely after the tribulation).
The Wedding Feast can only take place after the tribulation,
because the Resurrection doesn't happen until the Last day.
Jesus said three times that the Resurrection is on the Last
Day (John 6:40,  44,  54). _ Then the bridegroom  (Jesus)
goes into the wedding feast after the second coming of Christ,
and guess who else is at this Wedding Feast?       1   The Old
Testament saints.    2  The tribulation saints.    3  The prophets.
 4  The 144 thousand new Christians.    There would have to be
two wedding feasts__two resurrections__two second comings,
and two Last Days, for the "pre-trib" to work.     Note #4--->



                    6  of  9 ...
 Mark 13:6-37


In this entire chapter  Jesus is talking about  the events  that
happen during the tribulation,  and that they were   not   to
look for Him until   after   certain events happen,  then in
Mark 13:24-27,  "...after  the tribulation of those days,
then they shall see Him.."
 So Jesus again told them He's

coming back  after  the tribulation,  making this a  post
tribulation rapture
at the Second Coming of Christ.




                    7  of  9 ...
 
Luke 21:6-38


Basically  this chapter is the same  as the above chapter,  where
Jesus returns_after_the tribulation,  at the  second coming of
Christ,  except in v-36,  He says, "....pray that you be accounted
worthy to escape all these things...
" What things? All 21 plagues

that God uses to punish evil men; "...men which had the mark of
the beast..
"(Rev.16:2), and "..
those men which have not the seal
of God...
" (Rev.9:4). What makes us worthy to escape all these

things?  Accepting the  Lord Jesus Christ  as our Saviour, and
being an overcomer, which includes_not_taking_the mark of the
beast. So, we will escape all these things,  because we  have the
seal of God  (Eph.1:13, Eph.4:30,  II Cor 1:22, and John 6:27).
We are
protected from God's wrath,  like the 144000  (Rev.7:4).

Greek rendering of "escape" put in the proper context. Note #5-->



                    8  of  9 ...
 
II Peter 3:10


"...The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night."

Now let's let the Bible prove the Bible and go to I Thes. 5:2, where
the exact same words are used, "..the Day of the Lord so cometh
as a thief in the night."
 Then in I Thes.5:4,  (paraphrased)  "But

[we] are not in darkness that this day should overtake [us] as
a thief.
"  Why? Because I Thes.5:5,  "...[we]
  are children of the
light.
" So, we will know!   (I inserted "we"  for "you"  
because
Peter and Paul's letters were to the Gentiles (non Jews_"us").




                    9  of  9 ...
 
Revelation 22:12 (KJV)


"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me..."

"So, when does He give out rewards?  See Rev.11:15 and 18 
"And the 7th angel sounded..[its time]..that thou give rewards
..unto the saints
..."_It's after the 7th trump!!__At the end!

Rewards are given out  after  the post-trib resurrection/
rapture, after the Second Coming of Christ.


Now, the nine verse references listed above_was all that was
presented to prove the "Pre-Trib" rapture by the three pastors at
this conference. You can see that they were all taken out of
context, or based on assumptions, because all nine clearly support  the post-tribulation view instead. I believe  this new
(1830's) pre-trib doctrine was built on fear; not trusting that
God will carry them through this time when the church will
be needed the most.... 


                             Giants in the Land....


......God was angry with the 10 spies, who made Israel fear
the 
Giants in the land God promised to t
hem, (Num.13:1-2),
and  they were afraid  to go in,  (Num.13:31 KJV) 
and
(Num.13:33 KJV).  
We are doing the same thing today by

fearing  the  "Giant" (Antichrist)  we add  "pre-trib"  to
God's word, without a single verse to prove it, this is very
dangerous,  (see Rev. 22:18).  It is not  my intent to belittle
these three pastors, I'm sure they are sincere Christians, but
if they can't come up with one single verse that  specifically
places this event before the tribulation, who can? Note #6--->




It's really very simple, if it's not in God's Word, it's not going to
happen. Again, I want to repeat that these nine scriptures was
all that was used to prove the "pre-trib" rapture that day, I was
there! The senior pastor of this large church has read this article,
and we exchanged a few Emails, and he did not question that
these were the scriptures that were used. He believes that he is
teaching the truth, and so do I... One of us is wrong, but we are
still Christian brothers.



                                      Left Behind...


Some may ask: What difference does it make if Christ returns
before the tribulation, or after?_ There are sincere Christians on
both sides. However, the Bible says in I Thes.5:21, to "prove all
things."_And in II Tim.4:4,"And they shall turn away their ears
from the truth, and shall be turned into fables" (fiction). We see
this in the  "Left Behind"  book and movie, with cars and planes
crashing, etc. Millions are killed before the tribulation even starts,
when all these people still have/had a chance to be saved during
this time. The reality is the truth was  'Left Behind' in the making
of this movie! Yet it sells well in the religious marketplaces.  The
Pre Tribulation Rapture doctrine has become amusement for the
masses, a multi billion dollar business.                 
Note #7---->

Update on the above "Left Behind" topic as of  4/22/2016:

Kirk Cameron,  the star of this movie  has changed  to  the
Post-Trib rapture, and now preaches  against  the Pre-trib. 
He states: "The pre-trib rapture is a total hoax and a fraud."
And he turned down a role in a new  "Left Behind"  sequel...

(Just Google  "Kirk Cameron, Post-Trib Rapture")



Note:
The "pre-trib" view is a relatively new doctrine, you won't
find pre-trib writings or documents in any church history until
about the year 1830. Edward Irving, (Catholic Apostolic Church)
and soon after, John Darby, (Plymouth Brethren) both of England,
were teaching the pre-tribulation rapture. _However, the most
important reason for the acceptance of this "pre-trib" rapture
view in the United States was the Scofield Reference Bible as well
as the Dake Study Bible. In the footnotes Scofield split the second
coming of Christ into two events:

 Coming "for" the saints,   Coming "with" the saints (seven 

years later). Below is a quote from a well known Christian author
who lived
at the time this false theory was being introduced:

Robert Cameron (1845-1922):
"The Coming for, and the Coming with, the Saints, still

persists, although it involves a manifest contradiction,
two Second Comings which is an absurdity."
(Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p.639).


(There is a link at the end of this post where you can view brief
quotes by 30 of these renown church fathers, from 33AD to the
late 1800s; all taught the church would face the false christ).



If such a major event as the "pre-trib" rapture is true, why
isn't it found in Old Testament prophecy?__or in Jesus'
own teaching?__or His disciples?__or any of the New
Testament writers?__Jesus said in Mark 13:23, "I have
foretold you all things." He would have told us!!!


Others may say: That, "the tribulation is only for the 144,000"
And then they go on to say that these are the people that God
uses in this time to bring people to Christ. This may be true, in
part, but look at Rev. 7:1,2,3,4 where God puts a seal on this
small group. And because of this seal, they are protected!!
The woman (Israel/144,000) is protected in the last 3 1/2 years
of the tribulation (Rev. 12:13-14).


This, in turn, makes the serpent(Satan) angry, so he goes after
us in Rev.12:17, those who have"the testimony of Jesus Christ." Again, go back to Rev. 7:9, "After this (sealing of the 144000) I beheld, and look, a great multitude... of all nations...." Now skip
to Rev.7:13, who are these people, and where did they come from? Rev.7:14,"these are they that came out of great tribulation ......" And God just stated in Rev 12:13-14, that the woman (Israel)
are protected. So, who do you think this great multitude is, that
has the testimony of Jesus Christ if it's not us??__These are
martyred believers during the great tribulation (Rev.20:4).




So
, there are untold millions, along with the 144,000 Israelites who
are in this period of time. To say this time is only for them to
deal with is a "cop out" and just another assumption and not
valid. They base this on Isaiah 45:4 where Israel is called God's
"elect" (KJV), so then in Matt. 24:31, when Jesus sends his angels
to gather His "elect" after the tribulation, that this event (the
second Coming of Christ) is only for the 144,000 who have to go
through the tribulation._After we (non Jews/Israelites) accept
Jesus Christ as our Savior, we become God's elect. I'll back up
this statement with Paul's letters to non Israelites, the Galatians
and the Colossians:


 1   Gal.3:28-29
(paraphrased)"There is neither Jew or Greek,
you are all one in Christ...you also are Abraham's seed..."


 2   Col 3:11-12,
"...there is neither Greek or Jew...but Christ
is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the __Elect of God...."


3   I Peter 1:1-2, Peter writes a letter to different nationalities
and calls them the _"elect of God"_ because they have been
"washed in the blood of the Lamb"__ like we have been.
So, Israel_"and"_the church_"are"_God's elect!!




Jesus has one bride!
He created the miracle of uniting Jew
and Gentile alike into one bride. Let's just "reason together",
does it make any sense that Jesus would rapture out a partial
bride? What parts would He take first? And then...what? pick
up the other parts later - with whatever results the 144,000
are able to accomplish during the last 3 1/2 years? Why would
Jesus remove only some?


And... if He was going to do this, don't you think He would have
told us? At least one verse stating that He was going to take some

out first?  Jesus said in  Mark 13:23, "I have foretold you all
things."  He would have told us!!

Furthermore, do you suppose Jesus would have the wedding

feast with His "raptured" church (bride), without the tribulation saints, the  Old Testament saints,  the prophets or the 144,000? Let's think about this......... are we really this special?  Compared to these four other groups?


I am going to add a few scriptures, (that were not mentioned
at this conference) that are also used to support the pre-trib
rapture, so that you will have a complete list of all the verses,
assumptions and analogies this "new" doctrine was based on:



1
  Matt. 24:40, "....One shall be taken, and the other left."

Notice that Jesus made this statement just minutes after He

had told them "Immediately after the tribulation of those days."
(Matt.24:29). That's when "one will be taken and and the other
left"  Not seven years before!   Put it in context!



                          The Noah Analogy...

2   Many analogies are used by the Pre-Trib Rapture teachers,
for lack of scriptural proof. However, Noah is their main one,
so I will deal with this one. Everyone is aware of the fact that
Noah warned the people that a flood is coming and to repent,
but _they refused to listen.       The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
teachers say  "that's like the rapture",   so as Noah was saved
out of the flood, we will be "raptured" out of the Tribulation.
It's an analogy!!__An assumption!!


Did the flood come upon Noah, as well as the rest of the world
unawares? Let's read Gen.7:1 and Gen.7:4 and see. "And the
Lord
said unto Noah...For in seven days, I will cause it to rain upon
the earth..." OK, so it does appear that Noah knew ahead of time
when the flood was going to come...
                  
Note #9---->


...It was the world that did not know. Very important to notice
that Noah knew seven days before the exact day the flood would
start. And we will know seven years after the signing of the
covenant of Daniel 9:27,
the Lord Jesus Christ will return.

                           


3   Mark 13:32, is also used_"But of that day and that hour
knoweth no man..."
_Jesus told them this a few minutes after
telling them
in Mark 13:24 "..in those days after that tribulation,
the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light..."
And goes on to say in Mark 13:28-29 that we will know
this day is close because next He says in Mark 13:30....that the
generation that sees these things (the tribulation events), would

(back to Mark 13:26-27) "...see the Son of man coming in the
clouds.....to gather His elect from the...uttermost parts of the 
earth..."
Paul states in 1st Thes.5:4,
"we are not in darkness
that this day will come upon us as a
thief." Why? Because in
the next verse (1st Thes.5:5), "we are
children of the light..."   
However, right now no one knows,
but when the covenant of
Daniel 9:27 KJV is signed, we will know
to within a few weeks.  



Some people ask me, "why is it that the vast majority of
Christians believe in the pre-trib?"_
When Jesus came to the
earth the first time, the vast majority of the religious people
(the church) of that time, rejected him, even after many Old
Testament prophets foretold of this event. But they didn't want
a suffering Messiah, they wanted a conquering king. In this
case the vast majority was wrong!! Now, today, we want the
Messiah to take us out before a certain event, not after!! But,
guess what? we don't get to choose! He comes to the earth two
times (Heb 9:28). Once as a suffering Messiah, then a
second
time as a conquering KING at the Second Coming of Christ.




Important to read a list of one paragraph quotes from 30 of  the 
Early Church Fathers  such as:  Barnabas (30-102),  Justin Martyr
(98-167),     Augustine (354-430),     Bernard  (1090-1153)),    etc. 
They all taught that the church would be on the earth during the
reign of the Antichrist.


                                                         Links:

              
Early Church Fathers             Endtime Empire
                          Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse


Click on comments (below) then click jump to comment form to bypass the older ones


131 comments:

yohannbiimu said...

Thank you for this blog that thoroughly explains what is plainly spoken, rather than "interpreted" in God's word about the end times, and the Church's role in it. I was pretty much brought-up believing in a pre-trib rapture, but through my own reading of the scriptures (particularly in Matthew 24, 2 Thessalonians 2, and 1 Corinthians 15), I began to question this POPULAR notion regarding a rapture that seemingly rescues Christians from any harm coming to us (all the while, Christians ARE facing tribulation, and have been for centuries). And, as I continued to question these "proofs" of a pre-tribulation, I found more questions for each one, and NO answers. Now, I am thoroughly convinced that the church will remain until the last day (as you've explained), and that we will STILL have work to do for God's edification and glory. I praise God that I have not been deceived, and I hope to encourage as many as possible to remain steadfast when REAL tribulation befalls us. God Bless you!

Roger Armstrong said...

Yohannbiimu, your words were very encouraging to me, thank you. I read a few articles on your blog site...very, very, good and important for us to understand in todays world...I will read more when I have more time...

Anonymous said...

So glad that I found your blog. I have read the Bible cover to cover for over 40 yrs and could not find any proof of a 'rapture' although most churches I have attended preach this 'rapture'. Revelation is speaking to the 7 churches of 5 that Christ has ought with, So the two that are upright are going to be hard to find in these last days. If the church is supposed to be 'raptured', then why is Christ writing Revelation to them....all the Scriptures I have read over the years are in agreement with your teaching. I am in a Revelation study now and disagree with the teacher who believes in 'rapture'. (There is no word rapture in Scripture.) Her teachings are mostly taken from films and the Left Behind series. She does not teach directly from Scriptures. It makes me sad to see all this false teaching, yet Christ did warn us to not be deceived. When one reads the Scriptures as I have, not taking the verses out of context, they can see there is no 'rapture'. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. We do not overcome by being 'raptured.' God bless and may He open the eyes of those who are deceived.

Roger Armstrong said...

You are so right my friend, stand in there and may God bless you.

vic said...

I wish you had a share link on this page. I was taught the rapture when I was a child but when I grew up I read the bible for myself and found out that it clearly tells us no one is going anywhere. God seals his knowledge in your forehead,ie your mind, and the earth is made new, the kingdom of God comes down to earth. Those with the seal of knowledge know what season it is. Thanks for your page.

Roger Armstrong said...

Thanks' Vic. I don't know how to add a share link, but I do know that people have forwarded my post to friends (I also don't know how they do this, haha, yeah a computer nerd).

Cynthia said...

Hi, Roger. I spoke with you on your other web address about a year ago and you answered several questions for me as a babe in Christ and told me to "hang on for the ride." I had read your page regarding a conference you attended on the timing of the rapture. I have just been reading this blog from people for post trib and pre trib rapture doctrines. Now, be gentle and patient with me all bloggers, please. I only am hungry and thirsty for as much truth as have been given in God's word! I have been reading the scriptures referenced for post grin views and I understand that Jesus says "on the last day".., "at the last trump"... in John 6:40,44,54 and 17:15. However, the scriptures from Rev. 2,9-10, Mark 13:9-14 seems to be given to Jews attending synagogues and living in Judea. It seems to me Daniel 9:27 is speaking of an event talk.g place in Jerusalem that we need to stay abreast of via media. I am thinking this time is during the tribulation that Satan brings after the Anti Christ exalts himself in Jerusalem. Should I focus on the letters written to the Gentiles? Is some doctrine pertaining to Jews only? I know all Israel will be saved from Romans 11:26. I believe the question formulating in my mind is....is there a different experience for Israel than the Gentiles churches. Of the seven churches at Asia, how and which were the Gentiles? Sorry for being so verbose. Any insight from those who understand will be appreciated.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Synthia, So good to hear from you. Taking your last question first: The seven letters were to the seven different churches that were in Asia in John's day. However, they were to be an example for today's churches as all Christian churches of today will fall into one of these seven; All but two had major problems and like today's churches... the vast majority have major problems which leaves a very slim minority that are approved by Christ.

Daniel 9:27 is an event that takes place in the near future so we will know when the tribulation begins. A peace treaty between the Jews and the Arabs will be signed and probably backed up by all of the world powers. This treaty will allow the Jews to rebuild the temple on the temple mount where the golden Dome of the rock now stands, of course in view via TV to the world, we can't miss this sign we will know.

Your other questions I would be glad to answer (the best that I can), if you would contact me via email, as this is getting lengthy.

Anonymous said...

God I pray that you show me or lift the
blinds from my eyesight if there is. Im
confused over this controversy.

Roger Armstrong said...

Above anonymous (5:57PM), We are told to "Prove all things"... No need to be confused... just take all of the scriptures that clearly state that Christ returns 'after' the tribulation, list them all... then try to find at least one scripture that states that this is 'two' events; Before and After. If you can find one let me know and I will take my website off of the internet.

No matter what we believe on this topic, we are saved by grace.

HANDMAIDEN said...

Hi Roger;
I love this site. It is a blessing to read the comments which come from the hearts of others who love Christ. I agree with your position to the truth of the Post Tribulation second coming of Christ. I have been looking into the history of the Church and found that the early Church fathers were desperately trying to follow the original doctrine of Christ and were greatly concerned with the apostasy which was occurring in their day. Satan was not sleeping and when he could not tempt our Lord, he then went after the Church. He held the "carrot" of world wealth and beauty up before the eyes of the then staggering Church, and by using Constantine, he was able to take the Churches focus off our Lord and get them to value the visible kingdom instead of the invisible kingdom in which Christ dwells.

Mariola Bravo said...

Hello. I think it pays to remain a student always. Is life and this world not just one big school for Soul? With an eye to the future and Collective Human Spiritual Development of mankind, and with all due respect - the greatest misinterpretation of Scripture is that a man need not toil for his salvation and that he is "saved" by the utterance of his identity as a follower of Jesus. We also need to look at Christship as a seat or throne above. And Jesus' appointment/mandate/function as one who was overshadowed as a vessel of the Father Christ until his moment on the cross, "why have you forsaken me?" Where the second coming is concerned, Jesus gave the church to Simon - Peter. That is significant. Many know the Soul of Simon Peter to be incarnate as the person/Mooya Chilube.(see www.logos-im.org.za )It is understood by many paths that when Jesus said, let those who have eyes see and those who have ears hear...he was speaking of the Audible lifestream/the Spirit of God. This amounts to second sight too. All I am saying is that Christianity has been hijacked and the fervent seekers after God and heaven have been betrayed by the leadership. That is the saddest thing of all. A Christian must remain a seeker after the revelation and experience of God. The saved by declaration thing is a farce. Did Jesus not say, if you do not seek and find heaven in the body of flesh, what guarantee is there that you will do so after death.

Roger Armstrong said...

To Handmaiden, Thank you for your kind words and I agree with your other statements.

Roger Armstrong said...

To Mariola Bravo, Thank you for your comment, although I don't fully grasp all of it in detail, as I feel I should... I do understand the main point that I believe you summed up in the last four lines of your statement... and I agree.

Jonathan Haskins said...

Can you explain this?


Please observe:




Luke 17:36-37

36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”[f]
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Rightly divided with this (2 Tim. 2:15):

Revelation 19:21

And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Please note that the context of the Rev. verse I posted is indeed when the Lord returns; when heaven is opened and the son of man is revealed.

So please explain, sincerely,


Jonathan



P.S. My weblog is meccasevenmountains.blogspot.com
P.P.S. Let this just be fuel to the fire to those that agree. So, in other words, you don't need to explain it to me. But for those that disagree please email me with an explanation.
P.P.P.S. And to all:

I sincerely ask you all to enjoy my weblog.

Roger Armstrong said...

Jonathan, The scripture "One will be taken and the other left" does not have the word 'Before' or 'After' So one could put this verse wherever he wants... as you have done... for lack of any solid verse to prove the pre-trib.

Yes... one will be taken and the other left... when Christ returns "after" the tribulation right before 'God's Day of Wrath' at the very end of the tribulation. We can both use this verse.

With all do respect, Roger

bob monday said...

The only issue I have with what you have placed is that it is at the last trump that we are called. Now, look in Revelations, the last trumpet happens before the seven bowls of wrath are poured out. So, for it to be read very easy, there is a rapture that happens before the bowls of wrath are poured out, but certainly far after the antichrist appears, and after the giant earthquake, and likely after the judgement that befalls the Mystery Babylon, USA is her.

So, we are not appointed unto wrath, the seven bowls, that is when the wedding of the church and Christ take place.

Roger Armstrong said...

To Bob Monday...We disagree a little, as many do on this topic, but we are close enough to where the end result would be the same.

You probably hold to the sequence view of the 7+7+7 in regard to the seals, trumps and vials, whereas I believe the order is: Seal,Trump,Vial...Seal,Trump,Vial, etc., until all 21 plagues have fallen. Much to lengthy to discuss in this column. I explain this on a link I have:

http://4horsemen4.blogspot.com/

Jonathan Haskins said...

Tell me what you all think... go to http://meccasevenmountains.blogspot.com

Willie Brown said...

I want to put something on the minds the pretrib believers.The scripture says that at the time of the rapture that the dead in. Christ should. rise first &we who are alive in Christ shall be caught up after.Now if the Church is gone before the Great Tribulation people on earth will still be accepting Christ as their savior & living &dying. so the pretrib belief conflicts with the verse in Thessalonians.

Roger Armstrong said...

That is 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17, and you are right...I might add that this is just one of many scriptures that conflict with the pre-trib theory.

Anonymous said...

Praise God! Holy Spirit lead. This understanding does not come from man, but from God through disernment of the Holy Spirit. You are a child of God with a willing heart seeking truth. God is pleased with you! God bless you and all of you! :) Have an ear and listen to what the Holy Spirit says. :)

Roger Armstrong said...

Thank you my friend

Truth Teller said...

Roger, forgive me for telling it like it is. But you have no idea how to interpret scripture.
It does no use to try and explain to you that the pre-trib rapture is the only view scripture supports. It is in fact YOU who takes scripture out of context.
You have this mindset and your pride that keeps you from having an open mind on this subject. Its not the Holy Spirit who has led you down this errant path, but rather some book you've read or some other errant person who's deceived you about this subject.You are just plain wrong and can only deceive people who are as bad as you are at interpreting scripture. Why don't you stop this FALSE teaching???

Thomas said...

To "truth teller". Your name should be "False Prophet". You and your deception is exactly what Jesus warned us to stay away from....

Anonymous said...

This is a good blog about the error of pretrib rapture. All of us should be objective when we read the word of God and not rely on man's opinion. George Eldon Ladd, a very respected Evangelical Professor from Fuller Theological Seminary wrote persuasively on the subject which he entitled The Blessed Hope. All should read it. Just a comment on year 1830. Here is the statement by Jerry Jenkins, author of Left behind: "I have seen evidence of mentions of the rapture doctrine from as far back as 1590, when a Jesuit, Francisco Ribera, taught the idea ...." (Taken from God Reports blog. Keep the good work.

Roger Armstrong said...

Yes, I agree, that's an excellent book: "The Blessed Hope" by George Eldon Ladd. I read this book years ago, long after I took the Post trib position. Thank you for your comment.

Truth Teller said...

Roger, you like to interpret scripture one or two verses at a time, without considering the context, or additional verses.And of course, when I ask you to explain even one verse, you are unable to do so,or put it into context.So lets just try one verse,(the way you like to "interpret"),Revelation 3:10, where God's Spirit is speaking to the seven churches;
Rev. 3:10;
"Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the Earth."

Open up your ears Roger, Revelation 3:13, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

The great tribulation is a JUDGEMENT from GOD for unbelief. Both Scripture and common sense pose the question, "Why would God punish the church for unbelief???

The answer of course is HE DOESN'T. The church will NOT go through the great tribulation, period....

I can't wait for your "interpretation" of these scriptures, or will you just delete your challengers?

Thomas said...

You are mistaken truthteller, we are not appointed to God's Wrath. See link below for clarification. ...


http://lastdayrapture.blogspot.com/2011/09/not-appointed-to-gods-wrath.html?m=1

Roger Armstrong said...

I agree with Thomas and might add: Rev.3:10, states ..."I will keep thee 'FROM'...He does NOT say...take thee 'OUT OF'...

Compare the above verse with John 17:15..."I (Jesus) pray NOT that thou should TAKE THEM OUT of the world, but KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL."

Jesus just said not to take them out of the world...this is called 'proving the Bible with the Bible.

Truth Teller said...

Roger, you're still blaspheming and displeasing God with your incompetent "interpretation".

I've never in my life seen such totally wrong "interpreting", and a person who cannot defend his positions such as you.

You are pathetic, and a FALSE "teacher".

Your website is more important to you than God's truth.

So sad!

sidrojoe said...

I Just wanted to encourage you to keep proclaiming the truth of God's word, concerning the second coming of Christ. I myself, have been standing against the pre-trib rapture doctrine for over 20 years. It is good every now and then, to be encouraged by someone who shares the same burden for the truth. It took over 180 years for this doctrine to be built into what it is today. Many, many layers must be peeled off before the core of truth can be revealed. It will take time, and patience, but if only one is recovered from this error, it will be worth the effort. God bless you, and keep up the good work. Sidney G.

Roger Armstrong said...

Thank you Sidney for your encouraging words. We will stand together. May God Bless you also. Roger

Anonymous said...

Brother, Brother.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,
If you would read the following verses that follow, it says that the devil is working at this time, but has not been revealed yet....Why? Because the Lord our God is still present. Only Then when the Holy Spirit is removed will he be able to be revealed, not any sooner. God promised us the counselor which is the Holy Ghost and that he would never leave us. If he left leaving us stranded to face the Trib. that would make him a liar, and that my friend he is NOT.
God Bless You My Brother see in Heaven sooner than you think.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hello my brother. Thank you for your comment, and your attitude is very good. I would disagree with your opinion of the "he" of 2 Thes.2:1-7 being the H.S. but rather the "he" is the man of sin (A.C.)

We are very clearly told in 2 Thes:2:3, that the A.C. comes first. So we are on the earth and will see this man of sin the A.C. no rapture here... however your version does sound nice...to bad there isn't a single scripture to support this (to go into all the details you would have to email me). Or we could just keep it simple in this comment section. God Bless you my friend. Saved by grace, Roger

ChrisMP. said...

A word in 1st Thessalonians 4;15 seems to be overlooked by most scholars of either side of the controversy and I believe this one word settles the whole dispute. The original Greek word is "parousia" or "coming" in the English translation. We who are alive at His second coming is how this text should read based on the true definition of "parousia". This word means literal presence and when it used concerning the return of Jesus Christ, it is always referring to the second coming of Jesus Christ. When the pretrib people use these verses to describe the pretrib rapture, they always add that this doesn't mention the actual physical presence of Jesus on the earth. If you include the whole text of 1st Thessalonians 4;15-17, then you can see that it obviously refers to His literal presence here on the earth not some fantasy calling away of the saints to the marriage supper of the lamb which won't happen until after the tribulation in Revelation chapter 19. Just this one word "parousia" in my opinion, refutes the whole pretrib rapture view. You can also find this word in Matthew 24:3 when the disciples ask Jesus about His second coming and the end of the age.

Roger Armstrong said...

That's interesting I didn't know that. 1st Thes.4:15-17, is just another reference to the 2nd coming after the trib just worded differently. Pre-trib people try to use this scripture because they can't find anything to build this pre-trib rapture on...it's all speculation. Very interesting on "parousia" thank you my friend.

Anonymous said...

I used to be a pre-trib fundamentalist, im still a fundamentalist and I think you might find that some of us have changed our views but I can not by into the belief that the rapture will occur post trib either, my stance will be this: after 3 1/2 years of the tribulation which may begin sometime this year closer to the end of the year I might add, then we the Church and those dead will be caught up in the clouds to meet our risen Saviour and then the very worst of the tribulation will take place thats were I stand as a literalist, the blood moon events this year are what most mainstream and even the non-christian peoples are preparing for this event gotta get to work.

Roger Armstrong said...

Thank you for your comment. You would hold to the "mid-trib" position. That would still mean "two" 2nd comings; which would also mean "two" resurrections...God's Word says there is only "one" and that takes place on the last day...

Jesus said in John6:40 'paraphrased' "..The resurrection is on the "Last Day" (one of several scriptures) So the rapture must follow this event i.e. resurrection/rapture on the Last Day. Roger

Roger Armstrong said...

Yes, Shepherds Chapel is very good on truth. Thank you for your comments.

Anonymous said...

Nobody knows, and your assumptions are run-of-the-mill, overused arguments.

For another, well studied point of view:
http://www.biblefood.com/raphist.html

There have been, are, and will be many Christian martyrs.

Aren't you glad that NOAH was spared from God's WRATH? (Which is what the 2nd half of the Tribulation is all about.)

New Testament writers clearly expected the return of Christ before the end - so stop being so sure of yourself, because neither you nor anyone else knows.

Satan loves all of your bickering. You could die in the next instant, so all that is really important is that you know him and where you are going.

Roger Armstrong said...

We are told to "Prove all things..." in 1st Thes.5:21, so the truth is important to God. This I believe I have done in my post.

My question to you is...Can you give me just one scripture that states we are taken out before the tribulation? Of course not! So how can you prove this as we are told to do?

Since most Christians believe in the pre-trib they will be going into this period of time unprepared. We are specifically told in 2nd Thes.2:3-4 (KJB), that the false Christ comes first.

Allen Beechick said...

Is it fair to ask, where is one Scripture that says the rapture (or the catching up of 1 Thess. 4:17) happens at the end of the tribulation?

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Allen, Yes I can list several... Matt.24:29-31... Mark 13:24-27... Luke 21:25-28... I Thes.4:15-17... II Thes.2:1-4... These are all the same event, it's one event, not two. And yes, we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air/clouds and then return with Him to the earth for the thousand year reign. There are more but it becomes redundant.

Man has decided to make the second coming into two events. Please contact me by email if you want all of the details.

Allen Beechick said...

Roger,

I understand that the "gathering" of Matt.24:29-31 happens "after the tribulation." That is clear, of course. I also understand that it is natural for our minds to connect that to the "catching up" of 1 Thess.4:17, because we are familiar with that passage. But for a moment, if we were to put ourselves into the shoes of the disciples on the Mount of Olives that day, would it just as natural, if not more natural, for their minds to connect the "gathering" to passages they were familiar with, namely the parallel passages in Isaiah? These Isaiah parallel passages speak of a "gathering" to Jerusalem and do not mention a "catching up" into the clouds. This leads me back to my original question: Is it fair to ask, where is one Scripture that says the rapture (or the catching up of 1 Thess. 4:17) happens at the end of the tribulation?

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen, OK, let's try to put the verse you used (I Thes.4:17) into the context of the verses right before verse 17... verses 13 through 16... In brief Paul is talking about the resurrection so verse 17, the "caught up" takes place after the resurrection.

So, we need to put the resurrection into a time slot... Jesus Himself tells us that the resurrection takes place on the "Last Day" in John 6:40 and 6:44. Therefore this "caught up" takes place after the resurrection on the Last Day... not 7 years before the last day. This clearly places the "caught up" after the tribulation which makes it no different than all of the verses that state "after the tribulation.

Allen Beechick said...

Roger,

I observe first of all that connecting the resurrection of 1 Thess. 4 with the last day of John 6 combines two passages to make the argument. It is not one verse. It is two verses connected. Now that is perfectly fine. I see nothing wrong with that. That is the same approach that we pre-tribs use. We also connect passages in order to make our argument. Having observed the similar approach that we both use, do you mind if I go on to discuss that connection a bit further? In addition to connecting the resurrection of 1 Thess. 4 with the resurrection of John 6, do you also connect it with the resurrection of Rev. 20? Are those three passages parallel? You rightly point out that the resurrection in 1 Thess. 4 happens before the rapture. May I likewise point out that the resurrection in Rev. 20 happens after the second coming? We agree that the order of events is important in 1 Thess. 4. May we also agree that the order of events is important in Rev. 20? If we follow the same logic in both passages, then we arrive at the conclusion that the resurrection of 1 Thess. 4 happens before the second coming and the resurrection of Rev. 20 happens after the second coming. So there is a last-day resurrection, no doubt about that. And you desire to strictly follow the order of events. I share that same desire.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the scriptures and views...........I so love them!!!!

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,
In my opinion, there can only be one first resurrection and Rev.20:5, specifically calls this the "first" resurrection. So, to your question, Yes, Rev.20:6, I Thes,4:16, and John 6;40, along with several more, are the same event. The King James interpreters also thought they were the same event:

The foot note in the KJB on Rev.20:5, refers this verse to John 6:40, they apparently thought they were the same event...

And the KJB refers I Thes.4:16, to Matt.24:30, and I Cor.15:52. When read in context you will notice the similarities.



Allen Beechick said...

I too think there is one first resurrection. You may be thinking, how can I say that? It's like this. Revelation 20 talks about the "first resurrection" and the "second death." The relation between the two is obvious. Both phrases occur in the same chapter. Both are set side by side in sharp contrast. "First" contrasts "second." And "resurrection" contrasts "death." Is there a second resurrection? No. Just a second death. Everyone belongs to one or the other. You and I and everyone else either belongs to the "first resurrection" or to the "second death." That is how Revelation 20 portrays it. Now, as we compare other passages, we think about other people who belong to the first resurrection who actually rose at an earlier time. For example, Christ arose earlier. Does the term "first resurrection" exclude Christ's resurrection? No, it simply contrasts "second death." How about the two witnesses during the tribulation who rose earlier? Does the term "first resurrection" exclude their earlier resurrection? No, it simply contrasts "second death." (By the way, I don't know if this is relevant or not, but the beast and the false prophet went to their second death earlier than most, but that does not imply a third death.) So the bottom line is the context in Revelation 20. This context governs how the words are used. The word "first" sets it apart from the "second death." Therein lies the contrast. To make a such a contrast as to rule out people rising earlier is not the point of the context. (By the way, if you were to rely on the KJB notes, do those notes explain why the resurrection of Revelation 20 happens after the second coming, in distinction to the resurrection of 1 Thess. 4 which happens before the second coming?)

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,
I can follow the picture you are presenting, but, at best, it's all founded on implications... as is I Thess.4:17. To found such a major doctrine as the pre-trib rapture on the assumption that the term "caught up" is different from the term "gather together" (and yes, I do use a Strong's concordance) In fact, it could be said that this scripture is one of the main corner stones that the pre-trib is built on, and maybe even the main one.

With all due respect to you as my Christian brother, can you give me a scripture that is not based on an assumption? You know I can give you several that the post trib is built on.

In II Thess.2:1-4, we are warned that the false Christ comes "first"
and not to be deceived. You are a teacher of God's Word, (I commend you for your masters degree) and we both know that we will have to account to God for what we teach.

Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,


I fully agree that the man of sin comes first, before the day of Christ, according to II Thess.2:1-4. Also, you are right that the pre-trib view is based on implications. I am merely pointing out, as in our discussion above, that the post-trib view also is based on implications. It is an implication that the day of Christ in II Thess. 2:2 is equivalent to the gathering. In Matthew 24:31 the stronger implication is that the gathering refers to the parallel passages in Isaiah that talk about the gathering to Jerusalem rather than to the catching up into the clouds. Why stronger? Because the parallel Isaiah passages match several phrases, not just a word or two, and because the disciples knew Isaiah and did not yet know Thessalonians, and because Jesus referred to Isaiah six times in that part of His discourse. The stronger implication is that the resurrection of Revelation 20 happens after the second coming of Revelation 19. If we could simply agree that both of our views rest upon implications, then we could approach each passage fresh to see where the context in each passage leads us. Having seen my website, may I suggest the Scripture Index link, http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/ScrIndex.htm, in order to find a discussion of specific passages.

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,
I read your "Common Ground and Agreement" page and I was pleasantly shocked to see this coming from a pre-trib person. The only thing I disagree with is the rapture timing and the people you said would live into the millennium... I believe it will be non Christians that survive the last day plagues that will populate this period. We will be taken out before God's Day of Wrath (long story).

I only had time to skip through some of your other work and agree that Genesis 1 and 2 overlap, also the middle chapters of Revelation overlap, and, I might add, this begins at chapter 6, and covers several chapters, it's one story told over again and again to the end of the story like layers of paint with each layer filling in different details all starting at chapter 6. This includes the seals, trumps and vials also.

I'm aware of most of the duel passages and prophecies in the Bible, but don't claim to know it all. In fact, you are closer to my understanding of the post-trib to anyone I've ever discussed this topic with or carried on a dialogue with... pre or post. I've done extensive Bible research several years ago, but in these past 8 years I have been committed to my very simple post that most Christians can understand and the email questions I receive are easy. I don't think I will deviate from this approach because that's where the vast majority perhaps 99% are... You would fall into the 1% and I might fall into the 20% group... if that makes any sense.

Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,

Thank you for your gracious comments and for the privilege of posting to your blog. Yes, I am different from most teachers of the pre-trib view. Many years ago when my brother gave me Gundry's post-trib book, The Church and the Tribulation, I found that I agreed with him more than I disagreed.

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,
Is your brother still post-trib? OK, I've been going over your Isaiah references and kinda brushing up on a lot I've forgotten and a lot of this is valid for use in recognizing Isaiah passages that are brought up in some New Testament passages. But, just to be brief, take Matt.24:29-31, this should be read as one paragraph (verse separation was added by man) and I'm going to paraphrase this:

(29) After the tribulation... heavens shaken, sun, moon, stars,(clearly last day events).

(30) And then shall appear Jesus coming in the clouds.

(31) And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and gather together His elect.

(32) Fig tree sign (when) Israel is a nation again.

(33) When you shall see all these things (what things? every thing described in the above Last Day events,

(34) This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled (what things? last day events that will be seen by the generation that's on the earth at this time).

It should be clear (no speculation) that this is the 2nd coming after the tribulation and is when the gathering of v-31 takes place and we can assume that the trumpet sound is the Last Trumpet (7th) that's mentioned in I Cor.15:52, (but since I assumed this was the last trumpet we'll leave it out, it won't change the main point of this.

Allen, the point I'm trying to make is that there is clear proof that there is ONE 2nd coming after the tribulation and the above proves it. This is just one passage of several that can be used as a foundation to build the post-trib rapture on, so we can use some speculation on other passages to build on this solid scripture.

I have great respect for you but I can't debate this on the intellectual level that you're on (masters degree). I think it would be fair to ask you for one solid scripture for a foundation so that you can build speculation on.


Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,

One solid Scripture? That is a common question asked of those who hold the pre-trib view. It is a fair question that deserves a straightforward answer. My approach is not to prove a pre-trib rapture, but rather to prove that the rapture cannot happen after the tribulation. Scripture has many proofs that the rapture cannot happen after the tribulation. But you asked for one solid Scripture, and so for the purpose of this blog I will reply with the same Scripture that you rely on as your most solid Scripture, namely Matt. 24:29-31. Matthew does give us the first extensive teaching of the second coming in the New Testament, and how we understand it shapes the rest. So let me say three things about this passage. First, one of my previous posts summarizes why the stronger implication is that the gathering here refers to the gathering of elect Israel back to her land that is described in Isaiah. Thinking about this overnight, I would even say that Isaiah is not so much an implication, but rather the default connection, the most natural connection that the disciples would make, and for us to bypass Isaiah and to make a connection instead to yet unwritten Thessalonians would be more like an implication. Second, to get a better handle on the Matthew-Isaiah connection see http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/Intro/OldCommentary.htm. And third, the gathering mentioned in Matthew 24 cannot be the rapture gathering, because the order of gatherings at the end of the tribulation is the reverse of the rapture order (see Matthew 13 and http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/Book/First.htm).

All these observations (like Isaiah and Matthew 13) came through simple reading, not through my degree. I believe the Bible is understandable to everyone.

As for my brother, to answer your question, I haven't outright asked him, but I think over the years he gradually became pre-trib as he noticed that no one stepped forward to answer the arguments I put forth.

Thomas said...

Allen, The Bible is clear and easy to understand. There is ONE gathering on the last day.
What you are proposing is difficult to understand, and certainly needs mental gymnastics to see.

If your version was correct, you wouldn't need dozens of sentences to explain it.

Roger Armstrong said...

Brother Allen,
I will look into those links you listed a few days from now because I'll be very busy next two days, but in the meantime, to give you my idea of how we will be sparred from the most severe plagues that I believe will fall on God's Day(s)of Wrath and we are protected from all of the previous plagues... however, we will be subject to mans wrath as much as God will allow.

On my main page, at the end there is a link titled Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, just click on it and all you have to do is look at the first three pages, has a chart. This is the only link that I left a one paragraph disclaimer on, because I go into speculation and make that clear. Or just go to http://4horsemen4.blogspot.com/

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,
I've been going over some of your articles including "What event is first" (or words to that effect). And I can see your point but this would pose a problem for both pre and post. In the tares parable, Matt.24,24-30, "world" is translated "age" in the Greek... so, more than likely means end of tribulation inferring that the tares are taken first. And in the parable of the "net" Matt.24:48, the good fish were taken first then the bad were cast away. However, in the next verse (49) the bad were taken first and the good second. But I don't think the order they were listed is important, but the end result is... for instance, on a shopping list you started writing items down as you thought of them, then at the store you didn't use this order you just tossed these items in as you went down the isle. So only the end result was important not the order they were listed. Just as the seals, trumps, and vials will not be executed in the order they were listed but the end result will be the same.

In my opinion Matt.24:29-31, is the end result, not the order listed in the tares and fish. These verses (Matt.24:29-31) are very clear and strong; (29)First the tribulation, then last day events... Sun, Moon, stars, etc. (30) Jesus coming in the clouds. (31) He shall gather together His elect. This coming is clearly after the tribulation, not before.

Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,

Thank you for reading the chapter about Matthew 13 about the order of events. I will not argue the same points again here. But maybe I can just ask a question so that you can clarify what you believe about the order of events. In Matthew 24, what is the order of events? When does the world see Him coming in the clouds? (I'm not asking about seeing the sign of the Son of man. I'm asking about the coming in the clouds.) Do they see Him coming in the clouds before He gathers the elect? Or do they see Him coming in the clouds after He gathers the elect?

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,

I believe this to be one big event taking place in a certain order, and the short version is that it takes place at the 6th seal (Rev.6:12-17) which opens the Last Day. To start this day the two witness (Rev.11:8-13) are raised when Jesus appears in the clouds with a great voice telling these two to 'come up hither' and the resurrection/rapture happens at this same time, we are either resurrected or changed (if living) saints of all time are in this resurrection and all will see Him we will all be gathered at this time and will see Him in the clouds (lower air heaven) and then gathered to Him in the clouds and placed on the sea of glass...

... as John described it... "And I saw as it were (like) a sea of glass... and them that had gotten the victory over the beast (AC) and over his image and over his mark... standing on the sea of glass..." (Rev.15:2 KJV) At the end of this long day we return with Jesus (after Gods Day of Wrath back to the earth for the wedding supper and the millennium.

The direct answer would be just moments after the gathering, or during, we/all will see Him in the clouds and then taken up to Him. All my opinion...



Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,

Thank you for that. Do I understand correctly that we (believers) will see Him "after the gathering, or during"? Now, to clarify, when will the world (unbelievers) see Him coming with clouds? Do they see Him coming in the clouds before He gathers the elect? Or do they see Him coming in the clouds after He gathers the elect?

Roger Armstrong said...

Allen,

I don't think anyone knows this sequence because only half of the world (Christians and non) could see Him coming in the lower heavens (clouds) before the gathering so I guess this will be the case. And after the gathering just the Christians would all see Him at the same time (along with the resurrected saints). Yes, this is an assumption because I felt every detail to be unimportant because my main point is to get people prepared to go through most of these 7 years, especially the last 3 1/2 years, up to the last day.

Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,

Thank you for the explanation. That helps me understand where you are coming from. As I understand it, you take the phrase in Matthew 24 "after the tribulation" as your clear starting point. The order of events elsewhere does not matter as much, but that order ("after the tribulation") really matters. If you want to understand where I am coming from, I agree with the order "after the tribulation" and I also agree with the other Scriptures that mention the order of events. I agree with Matt. 24:30-31 where the gathering is mentioned last, after they see Him coming in the clouds (which makes sense if this gathering is the same gathering mentioned in Isaiah, the gathering to the land, the gathering to Jerusalem). Also I agree with the order of events in Matthew 13 (where you said the order of events is not important). Also I agree with the order of events in Revelation 19-20 where the resurrection happens after the second coming (where I suspect you might say that the order of events is written out of order).

So in each case, Scripture by Scripture, I agree with the order of events as written. That's where I am coming from. Of course, you don't have to agree with me. All I'm asking is that you understand where I am coming from and know that at least I rest on Scripture and am not making up my own order of events. You have been cordial in our interaction. Thank you. I am not asking for agreement. I merely ask for understanding, that if you do not agree, at least you may understand why I believe what I believe.

Roger Armstrong said...

Brother Allen,

I see your point about the order of events, but, if I'm not mistaken, you believe the good are taken first at a pre trib gathering, and then the bad are taken first after the tribulation, then those who converted during the tribulation will live into the millennium after the 2nd coming... I think? Of course who populates the earth in their physical bodies is very difficult to understand.

You have been very cordial as well. Thank you.

Allen Beechick said...

Brother Roger,

Yes, good summary. You stated my view correctly.

Roger Armstrong said...

Brother Allen,

If you would like to discuss this more please contact me via email. It's too difficult to carry on a long dialogue in this comment section.

Roger

Cindy said...

Only God knows all truth, we know that the wisdom of men is foolishness with god, it may be that the antichrist is already here. I speak out for God our father, Jesus Christ our Lord and the Holy Spirit for us all to be in UNITY!!! God's words say to pursue peace with ALL men or we will not see GOD

Roger Armstrong said...

Thank you for your comment Cindy, and, believe it or not, I agree with you. However, first, we must agree only if it is proven to be true... 1st Thes.5:21 (KJV) says to "prove all things..."

Christine LaRocca said...

Hello. I think the confusion is that people are mixing up The Rapture of the Church with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Rapture occurs first, keeping His beloved followers, The Church, from the "hour of trial" that is going to come upon the earth. Note that the punishment that is to come is not for the Church. It is for the unbelievers. Happy events will occur in Heaven for His Glorious Church while the earth goes through the 7 years of tribulation. The last 3.5 years is called "The Great Tribulation." After the 7 year tribulation period, Jesus returns WITH His Church for the Battle at Armageddon.
There are many Scripture verses to back this up. (Seek and you will find.) Think about it...if The Rapture took place at The Second Coming,
where is the Church during the Battle at Armageddon? Would it make sense for The LORD to punish his faithful Church, then take them up to meet him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18)just to bring them right back down to earth for the Battle? Please keep studying, and you will find all the answers you need. There are two events, and only one of them is The Second Coming of Christ. The Rapture is not that event. Thank you.

Christine LaRocca said...

I've already commented, but I'd like to ad something. After the Church is taken up, there will be others who come to Christ and will be saved. Some of you are thinking that it is the current Church, the Glorious Church, who will suffer those things mentioned. Not so. There will be a number of people (144,000 of them Jews) who will be saved, after The Church is taken up ("raptured"). I'll leave you with this, and I hope it helps: Revelation 3:10 reads: "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you FROM the hour of trial which will come upon the whole earth to test those who dwell on the earth." The ones who persevere are not just those who become believers who on the earth during the Tribulation period. See how many must persevere in today's world. Not all have a "cushy life." Look at the persecution all around the world that believers endure. Thank you.

Roger Armstrong said...

Dear Christine, thank you for you comments. No, we are not mixing up the rapture with the second coming. The term "rapture" can not be found in any Bible translation... also you have stated that there 'are two events' inferring to the second coming. Can you give me the scripture where you found this? We are clearly told in several places the second coming is after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-26) just to list one of many. Never are we told 'before' or that this is two events.

My dear Christian sister we are not told anywhere in the entire Bible that Jesus will take us out before the tribulation, this was added to the footnotes in the Scofield bible and then taught as the truth ever since... it's not in God's Word! Please read our main page again. Also we do cover Rev.3:10, just scroll down to #3 of nine.

Anonymous said...

There does seem to be a higher way of experiencing revelation and the meanings in the Bible for personal experience.

https://luciferexperimentblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/3degrees351.jpg

Anonymous said...

Scriptures that destroyed the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine:

Rev. 21:9 is about The New Jerusalem, the Bride, the Wife (Married already) of the Lamb (this is after the end of the Millennium, and start of the New Heaven and New Earth)

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
(I hope we don’t have another bride in mind, like what pretribbers did to Matthew 24:29,30, making it the second rapture/resurrection, which they say is still an integral part of the first resurrection of Rev. 20. Jesus will get His Bride one time only, not several times)

Question:
Why does it have to be ONE OF THE SEVEN ANGELS WHO HAD THE SEVEN BOWLS, be the one appointed by Jesus to show to John the Bride? Why not one of the seven angels who had the trumpets, or Michael, or Gabriel, or any other Angels?

Answer:
Checkout Rev. 16:12-15
12 THE SIXTH ANGEL POUR OUT HIS BOWL on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold I come like a THIEF! BLESSED is the ONE who stays awake (WISE VIRGINS? AND/OR THE WEDDING GUESTS?) and remains clothed (OIL/HOLY SPIRIT), so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Matthew 22

Anonymous said...

To make the above more logically valid, here is another scriptures to back it up:

Rev. 16:17-19
17 The SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his BOWL into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered BABYLON THE GREAT and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Rev. 17:1
17 ONE of the SEVEN ANGELS who had the SEVEN BOWLS came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the GREAT PROSTITUTE, who sits by many waters.

Your Brother in Christ,

eaglet,
roderickmcruz@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

THE HALF HOUR SILENCE IN HEAVEN IS THE MILLENNIUM
The half hour of silence is the thousand years or the millennium because of 1 John 2:18.
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

The above verse talks about the last hour and about the coming of the final antichrist. John also mentioned that even in his time there were already many antichrists. So if we will take into consideration that the final antichrist will appear in our time, then the time difference will be around 2,000 years. This means that the last hour is 2,000 years in duration, so obviously, half an hour is a thousand years, and silence means peace in Heaven and on earth (Satan is imprisoned in the abyss for a thousand years).

This makes it more a credible assumption because the last hour and the half hour were both mentioned by John in his books 1 John 2:18 and Revelation 8:1.

YBIC,

eaglet

Anonymous said...

The Trumpet Judgement will happen at the end of the Millennium.

Here are the parallel scriptures within the Book of Revelation:

A. Revelation 11:18 – Trumpets
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:12-13 – Millennium
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

B. Revelation 11:7 – Trumpets
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Revelation 9:11 – Trumpets
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Revelation 20:1-2 – Millennium
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (42 months)

Satan = Devil = Dragon = Beast = Angel = Old Serpent = Apollyon = Abaddon = Destroyer

Abyss = Bottomless Pit

The Dead is not The Dead in Christ

Revelation 20:5
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of the Dead in Christ

The second resurrection is the resurrection of the Dead

YBIC,

eaglet

Anonymous said...

THE TRUTH ABOUT THE BEAST/ANTICHRIST:

Consider the following points:

1. Dragon/Satan - Seven Heads with CROWNS and Ten Horns
Beast out of the Sea - Seven Heads and Ten Horns with CROWNS/Antichrist
Beast out of the Earth - Two Horns/Two False Prophet

2. Crowns signifies POWER and RULE

3. Seven Heads are the empires (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Revived Roman Empire) that will RULE the earth from Egypt to the last empire in the great tribulation, the Revived Roman Empire, having the influence of Satan/Antichrist Spirit in every empire.

4. Ten Horns are the ten kingdoms of the last Beast/Antichrist Empire that will be given POWER to RULE with the Beast out of the Sea/Antichrist in the great tribulation.

5. Two Horns like a Lamb - False Prophets of the Beast out of the Sea/Antichrist in the Great Tribulation. Satan's counterfeit of the Two Witness at the false 3.5 years great tribulation.

6. Satan is the Original Antichrist from the beginning of time. Anti in thesaurus means opposing, against, hostile, averse, defiant, unwilling, challenging, antagonistic, resistant. This can be found evident in Revelation 12. From the time of Jacob/Israel and the forming of the 12 tribes, the first empire that RULED that time was the Egyptians.

7. In Revelation 13, the Seven kings are Seven Antichrists figures ruling their respective empires and 5 were/ 1 was/1 will be indwelt by Satan (ex. Satan entered in to Judas when he betrayed Jesus)

8. The Eight King is Satan himself at the end of the millennium who belong to the Seven (heads/empires), who is the beast, who once was, now is not, and will come out of the Abyss and go to his destruction at the end of the millennium. The people who was not found in the book of life and does not have the seal of God in their foreheads (deceived by Satan at the end of the millennium) was amazed that Satan came back again, because he once was long time ago, and was not after the great tribulation / wrath / armageddon, yet will come again at the end of the millennium.

9. Satan will lead as Gog at the end of the millennium, the deceived nations, Magog (200 million army?), to attack the camp of the saints, who has the seal of God on their foreheads, at God's Beloved City.

Continued...

Anonymous said...

Continuation...

10. This is my theory on the Army of Locust:
a. The Locusts are fallen angels bound in the abyss together with Satan during the entire millennium.
b. They were released at the end of the millennium to torture the nations except the saints who has the seal of God on their foreheads.
c. The deception of Satan, the beast that come out of the abyss, is that he will convince the nations to fight against God's saints. Because from the saints will come the two witnesses that will cause the plagues of the first four trumpets judgement that the nation will endure and curse.
d. With all the nations that will have to endure the plagues, it will be easy for Satan, the Beast that come out of the Abyss, to convince them, given also the astonishing wonders such as Satan coming back to life again (once was, now is not, yet will come) and showing his might through his army of Locusts/Fallen Angels, and which the people horribly experienced the power of the Locusts/Fallen Angels, they were made to believe that they can defeat the saints and the two witnesses if they will join forces together.
e. The reason why Satan does not want to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, is because he doesn't want to destroy the earth and the people that he planned to rule on to, together with his fallen angels, because Satan and his minions can not recreate the earth again and he has no place anymore in Heaven.
f. There was also written in the Old Testament about those nations in the millennium (including the remnant jews) who will not come to worship in the Holy Mountain/City, will not have rain in their places. Maybe they also got fed up with following all the laws that were instituted by Christ the King and enforced by the saints (royal priesthood/intercessor/judges between the nations and Christ the King who are in the Throne in Heaven, Rev. 20:6).

YBIC,

eaglet

Roger Armstrong said...

To eaglet, my brother in Christ... I have read all of your comments/statements, and found them to be very interesting. I do have a few links on my main page that do go into these different topics, however, this is off the subject matter of this particular post of mine, and, although interesting, is very lengthy. My main drive is to make Christians aware of the fact that we won't be raptured out (before) the 7 year tribulation, so need to prepare to go through.

You are apparently well studied in these complex areas of God's Word, and I do agree with a few of the points you have presented. If you would like I would be glad to discuss a few of these topics via email, as this would be to lengthy for this comment section, and really not important to readers that are interested in the pre or post rapture question. Thank you, and God Bless... Roger

brother john said...

The word"rapture"is misleading,it is better defined as a resurrection.
1 Cor 15:20-28 says that there are only 2 resurrections.
The first is when Jesus rose(first fruits),the second at his coming.
Then Jesus delivers the (completed)kingdom to the Father after death is destroyed.
This same sequence is found in Rev 20. 2 resurrections then death is destroyed.
It says in 1 Cor 15:52-54 that after the last (7th)trumpet death is destroyed.
There cannot be a time after death is destroyed that an earthly reign takes place (1ooo year reign) with a revolt by Satan,and then death is destroyed again.
Prelim teaches not two, but several resurrections,I have heard as many as seven.
All the events on earth must take place between the two resurrections.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi John, yes, the word Rapture is misleading and really shouldn't be used at all... it was the word invented by pre-trib people to divide the 2nd coming into two events separated by seven years... the resurrection and the 2nd coming are "one event"... after the tribulation.

However, you refer to I Cor.15:20, as the first resurrection, when, in fact, I believe that this event (Christ resurrection) is just a precursor for the first resurrection where the saints of all time are raised at the Last Trump in this same chapter verse 52, after the tribulation.

Furthermore, Revelation 20:5, states ".. This is the first resurrection and goes on to say in verse 6, Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection.." This is the one we, and saints of all time, must be in! (Otherwise we won't be blessed) Then we meet Jesus in the cloud area of the sky, return to the earth with Him.. the wedding supper.. then go into the millennium. It is after this 1000yr period that the second resurrection takes place.

You must read the entire 20th chapter to put all of this in context... clearly both resurrections take place in this chapter, separated by 1000yrs (Rev.20:1-15).

My opinion... Roger

Anonymous said...

There is NO RAPTURE.
Those that died in Christ, (which billions asleep now over centuries have NOT died in Christ) will rise, yet those still alive that follow God's laws, keeping the Sabbath Holy, will change in a Twinkling of an eye. Both, same time. Dead in Christ, and those in God's Laws, change.
No rapture.

Yet before the 3.5 - 5.5 years of TRIBULATION STARTS, those following God's laws, called, will be notified to go to "the place of safety" I believe people mess that up with people missing, rapture.

There is no rapture, you must die if you live, it is written. We all will die, unless it is that time.

Roger Armstrong said...

My dear Anonymous friend... Do you really think that you can 'keep the Sabbath' as required under the law of Moses? When, in fact, no one has ever been able to do so, even in the Old Testament times. Do you not know that as a Sabbath keeper in todays modern world, you would have to keep the same laws, and just to list a few... Whosoever does any work on this day must be put to death (Ex.35:2)... and he must be stoned to death (Num.15:36)... even for gathering firewood... (or like taking out the trash) you can't even light a fire in your house to keep warm (Ex.35:3). You can't even leave your house on the Sabbath (Ex.16:29).

The Sabbath day keepers of today, can not, and do not, keep this law; all of them have broken this one alone... and how many of them have been stoned to death, as required under this law?... like... none! So, you and all of the other 7th Day Adventist's have broken this law because you must stone him (them) to death... and you didn't do this... You wouldn't even think of this... yet, you must it's the law!

God knew they (nor us) could not keep this law and that is why Christ had to die in our place, to release us from this law, otherwise there would be no one to raise in the First Resurrection, as stated in I Cor.15:51-52, if this was only for those who keep the law of Moses... are you inferring that because you TRY to keep the law of moses this makes you worthy to rise in the First Resurrection? If so, Christ suffered and died for nothing... you don't need Him?

Saints of all time will rise in this Resurrection, including those who tried, but couldn't keep the law of Moses, Christ died for them in their place because they couldn't keep it! He died for all of us, there will be no special Law keepers in this resurrection, we are all the same... furthermore for the rest of us who may differ in topics like the pre-trib or post-trib...etc., He died for us no matter what our views might be on minor topics as long as we have accepted Him as our Savior and Lord and this covers all of our sins... we are free because of Jesus Christ only... He is our Sabbath!! "Let no man judge you of holy days, etc, etc, OR OF THE SABBATHS.." (Col.2:16).

mitch in california said...

today's date: 7-1-2016

As a Christian, having been born again, (accepting Christ as my personal Savior and knowing He is the Son of God for almost 60 years) I find this series of commentary very interesting. The earliest comments beginning 2012 and still going on this date. Personally, I have been "taught" that the "pre-trib" was correct and that we, Christians would escape the Great Tribulation. Reading the Word and applying it to our daily lives is what we are also taught. After reading these many comments, I believe I can accept the possibility of the "post-trib" rapture. As a "seed planter" for many years, I don't know that this discussion has ever been a significant part of sharing the Good News. In fact I don't even think about it as being critical to the sharing of what the purpose of Christ's death on the cross is to each of us, and to those who are still lost, or who have never accepting Him as their Savior.

While I believe we should share the Truth about Christ and the many teachings in the Bible, we may not need to argue over this "pre-or post trib" issue. For me, whether Christ takes us up before the 7 years or after is not the most important teaching that should consume our time. In many ways, after reading 4 years of commentary on this subject I believe our time would be better served if we were learning how to be a better seed planter. As Christians we will be known by our love, and when you are old, and your time is short, sharing Christ in whatever time we have left is the most important.

We talk about the end times, yet whether we live to age 25 or 125, we have limited time on this earth. And since we will all "die" death will mark the "end time" for us and then we will be living with Christ for eternity. We will all be changed.

So, in closing I want to question one comment that was made about Christians taking the mark of the beast in the tribulation...and that was that they would be lost. Now my thought about that stems from Romans 37-39, and basically that if those who are truly "born again" takes the mark of the beast "they" will be separated from the love of God and in the same sense removed from the eternity promised to those who do believe in Christ. It's confusing because for decades I've believed that once we are "saved" nothing will keep us from spending eternity with Christ in the Heaven. And while I would agree that we are not to take the "mark" it may be that some will...even though warned not to do so. Will they truly be "lost" if they do, and that Romans 37-39 does not apply to them?

my name by the way is "Mitchell" and I sign as "mitchincalifornia" when posting comments. and my email address is also shown in my identity.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Mitch, first off, I commend you on your Christian attitude and thank you for reading my post. I agree with you we should share the truth about Christ, this is first and foremost and why I share my testimony at the top of my post... top right column. One of these truths is in 2th Thessalonians 2:1-5, we are clearly told that before we can be gathered together by Christ, the false Christ Must come first... a warning to be prepared for this event so as not to be deceived by this devil incarnated man into worshiping him, or taking the mark, etc.

Furthermore, if we do so, we are then told (warned) in the context of Revelation 14:9-11, that we would be Forever Lost (no Eternal Security here) Also read the previous chapter to this in Rev.13:11-16, both of these chapters should be read as one (chapter and verse separation added by man). In reading these two chapters I think you would agree that this Truth is very important.

I could go on and on, as I'm sure you could do as well. I would love to discuss this further with you either in this comment section or via email. God Bless you my friend... Roger

Lee Silber said...

Rapture will come any second Jesus want' s his true son's and daughters in heaven before the 7 year tribulation, please teach this!!! What will happen after the rapture? leesilber2016@gmail.com

Tammy L said...

Hi Roger I have been asked to place some very good scripture here by one of our friends, that shows with Jesus own words the fact of a post tribulation resurrection/rapture.

John 6:39,40,44,54, and John 11:21-24
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Then Does someone else know of this information?Yes there is Lazarus sister,
21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Then we head on over to 2 Thess 2:1-4
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Now three questions that people have to answer here is who, when, and how many will be resurrected and raptured.

Also something that must be added which the pre tribulation people love to usebut makes more sense with a post tribulation resurrection/rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

now Jesus Himself said that He would resurrect His own on the last day, Paul in these verses tells us something we must pay attention to, We will not precede those dead in Christ they will be resurrected first then we which are alive and remain shall be taken up to be with those resurrected thus the rapture.

There is only two resurrections they are the first one at Christs coming, and the second one will be after the millennial reign, where all peoples who have died will be resurrected and judged and then they get thrown in hell, and death and hell get thrown into the lake of fire.

There is also the fact that pre tribbers say that He comes as a thief but He shows in Revelation 16:15 that He has not as of yet come as a thief but is coming as a thief this is said right before the 7th vial is poured out, So His coming is going to be extremely noisy everyone across the planet will see it happening.

Blessings to you and Heide!
Tammy

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Tammy, good to hear from you, and yes, I agree with you on all of the points you mentioned... the last ones first: I agree the Bible is very clear that there are only two resurrections... we want to be part of the first and not the second after the Millennium. And you perfectly explained I Thes.4:13-17, the pre-trib teachers have twisted this to fit their view.

On II Thes.2:1-4, conclusive proof that the false Christ comes first and I have this on the front page of my post third paragraph down.

And on the references to the 'Last Day' in John 6:40, 6:44, etc., (also conclusive proof, I have this one listed under The Parable of the Ten Virgins, Mat.25:1-13, on about the third page. However, you went into more detail and, I might add, you presented all of those topics very well... clearly conclusive proof, a person has to go into mental gymnastics not see these truths.

Thanks for your comments and I going to assume you are doing well... Heide and I are doing OK... at our age you no longer say 'Great' haha.



Tammy L said...

Thank you so very much my friend and brother for that compliment and great encouragement. You were very instrumental my dear brother in helping me tie up some loose ends I had. Which is exactly when the Father had me find you and introduced us to each other. God is so amazing and wonderful and He does not mind showing us one another to help us along on this journey of our learning to walk deeper in Him.

We all see everything from different perspectives, but there is only one way and that is God's way. The journey is about learning to lean on Him and allow Him to teach us His will ways and how to trust Him and walk in obedience. We need one another to see and hear from other peoples testimonies. That's why we fellowship, so that we can have other perspectives.

I have found that people who don't try to teach other people, just share what the Lord is teaching us at the time, don't know they're actually teaching at that moment. It is when I am just relating the myriad things the Lord does for me and shows me, that i find people are impacted the most.

I love God so much and just want other people to know the Truth who is Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh! We must know the truth of the word in order to be truly completely free, in Christ. Also in order to be called His we must know HIM all of Him that we can find in the word, and then He supplies the rest, of who He is in tiny bursts of understanding and knowledge about Himself that He plants in your heart.

I am keeping you and Heide in prayer love you much my dear brother in Christ and your precious wife too.
Let's just agree in prayer that Randy Lewis is going to find the truth that He truly has been called to the truth, and will know that this is not correct whatever this gibberish is he is going on about. Let's agree that God will open his eyes to see and his ears to hear what the Holy Spirit would have him to see and hear, truth straight forward and honest.

Denise said...

I was a pre-trib believer for 20 years. About 2 years ago I began reading parts of the Bible (the minor prophets) and realized that many things I was told , just didn't add up. The more I read and compared , the more I realized that I had been lied to. I know that there are Christians that sincerely believe this and are teaching it , which to me is heart breaking. So many deceived. This doctrine makes Christians lazy , by thinking there will be a second chance - just in case they or someone they love doesn't make "the rapture". I have corrected my own error - what I taught my children and older grandchildren - and explained the history behind the rapture lie. This is so devastating. Thank you for this excellent rebuttal. I also question the 70th week of Daniel theory as well. It doesn't add up either. In Daniel chpt.9 , why would verse 26 be clearly talking about Jesus (Messiah) and in verse 27 , suddenly be referring to the anti-Christ. That doesn't make sense. Especially if you consider that sacrifices and offerings ended when Jesus died. I am still researching this. Anyway , thank you for blowing the rapture doctrine out of the water. Now to convince those who believe it.

Roger Armstrong said...

Hi Denise, Thank you for your kind words. Your question referring to Dan.9:26-27 (?) these two verses should be read as one long paragraph because chapter and verse separation was added by man. The first few lines of v-26: talking about Jesus Christ, the last several lines of this verse (26) is talking about the anti-Christ: beginning with "and the people of the prince (anti-Christ) that shall come...etc" Therefore, v-27, is still talking about this very same person (half man, half demon).

So the "he" in v-27, is the same entity as in v-26. The sacrifices will be those done by the Jewish priests that will begin only after the temple is rebuilt probably take several months even working around the clock. At the mid-point of this 7 year period "he" AC will break the covenant, and the sacrifices will cease. Very difficult to explain in the limited space of this comment section. Hope this helps - Roger

otis shinault said...

amen brother that's what I was taught we want know the day hour the minute or the second so preach on brother god bless you

Roger Armstrong said...

Sorry, for the delay in responding to your question - been busy. Okay, your comment is one of logic... so we will go there in the following:

The Resurrection must occur first before anyone can be raptured to meet Jesus in the air (cloud area) and Jesus had stated several times in John chp.6:40, and a few more, that the Resurrection is on the Last Day. So it is only logical that the 'Last Day' can't take place 7 years before the Last Day? Last is Last! It's logical.

Furthermore, it is only logical that Jesus would take us out of the way before He released the last four horrible plagues that fall on "God's Day of Wrath" - Rev.6:12-17. - Rev.8:1-5. - Rev.11:15-19. - Rev.16:17-21. The same Last Day Earthquake is specifically stated in all four. so, this is the logical reason we will be taken, after the resurrection, to meet Jesus in the air where we will be standing ON the sea of glass (looked to John huge, like a sea, where all of the saints were standing ON - Rev.15:2. And in this verse look who these people are: they clearly had passed through the Great Tribulation...

...because, "... they had gotten the victory over the beast (AC), and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, standing ON this sea of glass ..." Rev.15:2. read it! They clearly weren't taken out Before! I could go on and on with logic and I would place scripture, as I did, after each statement. Missing from your statement/question was scripture... but your question was valid and thank you.

Bruce Garthe said...

I agree: the "Great Tribulation" comes first! After all, WHAT is the purpose of the "Great Tribulation"? To KILL all those who refuse to worship the "Beast"!
Let me add that the "Tribulation" Is NOT seven years in duration. The last seven years of gentile domination (the 70th week of Daniel) are divided in half. A powerful figure guarantees the right of Israel to worship in their Temple for SEVEN YEARS. Only in the MIDDLE of that seven years is there any indication that worship will cease. The FIRST 3 1/2 years of that seven-year treaty appear to be trouble-free and all in favor of Israel's security. That's when anti-Christ will "ascend from the bottomless pit" [abyss] and cause the abomination of desolation. The man who MAKES the seven-year treaty with Israel will be assassinated after 3 1/2 years so that the real anti-Christ MUST fulfill scripture by "ascending" from the bottomless pit and inhabiting the body of the original signer of the treaty with Israel. We know from scripture that the REAL anti-Christ is NRON KSR.

Roger Armstrong said...

Yes, I believe you're correct - the way I see it as well. However, I don't know what NRON KSR stands for though? Thank you for your comment.

Mack A Smith said...

I have been teaching this just about all my life. I cannot understand how people cannot understand that the calling away is sometime in the latter half of the tribulation. God said that He would shorten the days in order that no humans survive the tribulation.
Mt 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mack A Smith said...

There are 7 church ages. We are now living in the Laodiceans. That is the last church age before Christ sets up his Kingdom.

Tammy L said...

There is no seven church ages. The dispensation of time dude not the seven dispensations. There was no the covenant of Adam and Eve which they broke. Then there was the covenant of the law and blood sacrifices and now there is the covenant of Love which Jesus brought.

The very last day is the very last day of earth being in satans rule. The very last day is the very day of resurrection and rapture. John 6:39,40,44,54. John 11:24

Now go on over to 1 Thess 4:13-17 and read it and see how Paul solidifies Jesus words right there. Resurrection/rapture last day just as Jesus said. You have got to stop listening to doctrines of demons and traditions of men if you hope to be saved!

Then if all that is not enough for you go read Matt 13:39, then go on over to Matthew 24:29-31, then go on over to revelation 14:16-20 and see the angels gather us up then Jesus no sooner than we are safely taken up by the reapers the angels, Jesus pours out the wrath of God right there in the valley of Meggiddo and the blood rises to the horses bridle!

Open your eyes and stop with the madness. You show the world you do not know god nor one drop of the truth that He is!

Anonymous said...

Allen,

Tell me if God wills and desires that the Bride must be spotless, pure, and blameless, What sort of process must the Bride have to go through?

By concerning ourselves with the things of God, we will surely come to know the truth.

Peter was commended by Jesus for declaring the truth about Him. But just after six verses, Peter was rebuked by Jesus and even calling him satan, because Peter put much concern on things of men not on things of God.

Knowing the very nature of God will reveal to us the truth through His very intention, desire, and heart on His words.

YBIC,

eaglet
an former pretribber, became a berean, then a solid postribber (Rev. 16:15, Rev. 21:9)

Tammy L said...

Amen anonymous!! Many blessings I pray for you. I am as you a past pre tribber shown truth and now a berean and a workman/woman not needing be ashamed. Firmly post trib being shown more and more and more of the truth day in day out studying the word and praying constantly.

Mack A Smith said...

Let me say this, Jesus appeared many times in the old testament. He has appeared once so far in the New Testament. He will appear again sometime in the last half of the Tribulation because He said that He will shorten the days so that everybody is not killed. That is the calling away for us to meet him in the air and rule with him for a thousand years. Then and only then will He descend and set foot on the mountain and His reign will be for eternity with Jerusalem as his Capitol with the earth being renewed and we will be here for eternity with him.

Tammy L said...

Mack A, you are wrong!!
Sorry but you are wrong not somewhere in the last half. On the very last day!!
John 6:39,40,44,54, John 11:24
Then wander yourself over to 1 Thess 4:13-17, then go on over to Matthew 13:39, then march on over to Matt 24:29-31, and see for yourself they work together to present a very clear picture. Now then go on over to Rev 14:14-20 and see Jesus on the clouds the shout of the arch angel to him who sits on the clouds with power and great glory, and no sooner do the angels reap us ON THE LAST DAY, then Jesus turns around after that half hour of silence the 7th seal which is last judgment after the 6th seal the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial are poured out at the very same time as one another, then Jesus Himself as God pours out the wrath of God, and makes the blood rise up to the bridle of the horse He has come down off the cloud onto terra firma to kill off those who dared to come fight the lord Himself at Armageddon.

Not somewhere before He steps down right at the moment of His stepping down.

Web Pqk said...



The Lord created the pre-earth rapture His Son's personal royal family highest priesthood

A rapture verse (spring up-caught up-violently snatched up (meet him in the air) looking up loving his appearing

Isaiah 45:8 Drop down,ye heavens,from above,and let the skies pour down righteousness:
let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring
up together; I the Lord have created it.

Rom11:32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,that he might have mercy upon all.

He picks
Rom9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom9:18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 11:25...ignorant of this mystery lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;that
blindness in part is happened to Israel,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom4:6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man,unto whom God imputeth
righteousness without works,

Come: time wasting away
Rom15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power
of the Spirit of God;so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum,
I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay,of the same lump^ vessel unto honour,and
another unto dishonour?

Rom15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy;as it is written,
For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the
election of grace.

Rev22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say,
Come.And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Rapture rewards only judgement 1st fruits priesthood first/Next the born again (Father calls them:Foolish Dumb Bastar#s Psalm 2, the 2nd coming judgement is of wrath.)(kinda fruit-not christian 1stfruits)
1 Cor15:23 But every man in his own order:Christ the firstfruits;afterward
they that are Christ's at his coming.
Matt25:2 And five of them were wise,and five were foolish.

God by the pleasure of His good will, says our Hebrews priesthood is tasked to do this
Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
We have key of knowledge,we only teach celestial doctrine of godliness rapture any second,we have a pattern,we have a celestial wise hidden foundation that Temple Jews nor Peter Messianic Jews 4 sin law flesh bondage works w/Gentile proselytes ever had.
We are by faith by mercy,by faith,by grace,to faith alone ministers of church of 1st born 1st fruits is our husband,(Christ-his rapture) the dispensation,won't stop until Romans 11:25
2 Cor4:3But if our gospel be hid,it is hid to them that are lost:

webpqk @ gmail.com Randy Lewis

I teach doctrine of godliness of rapture any second predestined pre-earth to Genesis to Revelation.
Jesus cross rewards only judgement PEOPLE,the Gentile.
No trib/no wrath No great wrath No great white throne of wrath only judgment upon the watchmen on the wall white stones of eternal shame of heaven, by using ministry of reconciliation with charity & full, 1/2,1/4 chapters here some there some.

Tammy L said...

You have some right beliefs but are so wrong white stones of shame? are you kidding me? it is an honor to receive a white stone from Jesus it is not a shame unto us. Revelation 2:17. You twist turn deny the truth at every turn and then think you have enlightenment? are you for real? I honestly think you love messing with people because how could someone be so off and wrong about the Lord and His word?

I had no idea it was possible to have that kind of heresy to live off of.

Web Pqk said...

Job is going in the rapture kicking & screaming.It's not a resurrection
Job 7:9-11
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.

10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

There are many dispensation in the bible.

Jesus tells in Luke 11 they even scrubbed & rewrote recrafted the bible(This plagued poor Peter he got in but his priesthood is put on hold till end of the dispensation of Gentile rapture bride a mystery (*opened only for us* ) to bring to all 5 priesthoods)

Repenters,baptizers,renew,rededicate resurrect raptured Christ over & over again(a antichrist spirit)THY don't qualify to even be Foolish dumb bast#rd virgins
But God MADE A WAY TO SAVE THESE GUYS(take the law sin flesh works scales off (regrafting the reconciliation Temple & Peter could come in with the Gentiles) Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Genesis 29:8 And they said, We cannot, until all the flocks be gathered together, and till they roll the stone from the well's mouth; then we water the sheep.

Last 3 of 5 flocks Paul now i can preach-Genesis 29:8
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

it's not a resurrection,it's not a resurrection to life but a new rapture body to eternal life
Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

our sects a heresy to Temple Jews and (Peter 120 got in)Peters Messianic fig tree cursed 4 gospels no door to heaven)Peters priesthood will be used after the dispensation of the rapture bride Lambs 2nd wife his hidden people the gentile's + some Jews priesthood is sprung up

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more

Temple Jews were to run to Peter's (what is hidden is Paul preached Messenic w/Gentile proselytes 4 sin law bondage gospels also)Church of God(that Saul/Paul almost wasted) Acts 1-4 repent renew rededicate baptize born again,great commission(*put everybody doing everything Moses/Aaron did minus alter & animal blood.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

webpqk @ gmail.com Randy Lewis i teach rapture any second + more


Tammy L said...

You are convincing no one of anything at all here dude! Yet you just keep coming back to it! Though your audience thinks you are crazy and writes off everything you think the verses you use are saying. It's really quite insane. The definition of insane sir is doing the same things repeatedly expecting a different outcome.

When we read what is at the bottom of your name and posting, then everything you say goes into the category of lost ignorance, one without the Holy Spirit guiding their understanding nor your heart and or life.

Wasting your time and anyone elses time with this foolishness you obviously do not understand anything at all, and show it at all times and post a bunch of unrelated verses to try and say something LOL.

Unknown said...

"Asin the days of Noah..." The Lord did not remove Noah from the world, during the destruction of the earth. He protected them, while still here. The earth was flooded all around them, and they came out untouched by God's wrath . What a mighty God we serve!

Roger Armstrong said...

Yes, that is correct, nor did God take the three Hebrew men out of the Fiery Furnace - He carried them through, out the other side (Dan.3:22-25). And in another case, Jesus said, to the father, "I pray Not that thou should take them Out of the world, but that thou should Keep Them From The Evil).

In Noah's case, as you stated, God carried them Through The Flood, did Not Take Them OUT OF - In fact, Noah knew seven days before the exact day the flood would start... could be a fore runner to us to knowing that seven years after the signing of the covenant of Daniel 9:27, the Lord Jesus Christ will return. Thank you for your comment.

Web Pqk said...

Note #1._When is the resurrection? Paul tells us in 1st Thes 4:15,16-17, "You found the last step

I the Lord have created it.
he created the great hated/misunderstood hidden wise Gentile rapture bride,the mystery of the taking
up of His personal royal family of the highest priest of his personal last and highest priesthood
(ONLY He is our judge and only satan is our accuser,of the Gentile rapture bride the Lamb's
2nd wife *only we get His rewards only judgement.)

Only His hidden wise Gentiles + couple of Jews were called to peace with the heavenly calling
Col3:15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts,to the which also ye are called in one body;
and be ye thankful.

Matt25:2And five of them were wise,and five were foolish.

The 2 flocks of MILK terrestrial foolish dumb bastar#s as Lord Father God (the King of the saints
eternal) calls them: on earth , then those that survive the 2nd judgement will be forced to their
knees to obeah in the 1000 year dirt kingdom then as it is lifted and given back to Father in
heaven to be all in all heaven they are still milk and forced to knees and to obey! heaven will
be their hell forever.

WHY?because they were never made wise quickened spirit strong meat! they will only be quickened
foolish milk @ 2nd judgement.


we are the hidden judges and counseller's that will judge the 2 sheepfolds and world and angels
after we come from the east Matt 24 make landfall in Edom, to open the east gate for set up for
Har Meddigo in Isaiah 63 then we get down to judging the 2 flocks of lost sheep (the bast@rds)
with our husband the Rod of Iron

1 Kings2:33Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab,and upon the head of his
seed for ever:but upon David,and upon his seed,and upon his house,and upon his throne,shall
there be peace for ever from the Lord.

1st Thes 4:15,16-17 is the END of the rapture of the hidden ones the wise Gentile rapture bride
(*plus some Jews of other priesthoods) Christ spotless justified blameless 2nd wife dead corpse
1st then the alive,great springing up of righteousness.

The dispensation of the Gentile rapture bride has the key of knowledge,the only gospel of peace
alone that fulfills prophecy of John 3:16 and all of Hebrews 4,celestial heavenly calling,
doctrine of godliness w/charity,the freely given light,Paul our pattern, born of the
freewoman & her (son,) the personal rapture faith of by faith alone of the Father/Son/Holy Ghost
and hidden in the house of King David
and the only ones that can reach back to the other priesthoods to save some of them.



5 priesthoods & 2 fishers of men covenants *only the apostle to the christians Paul could
preach
John6:9There is a lad here,which hath five barley loaves,and two small fishes:but what
are they among so many?

Rom11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh,and might save some of them.

webpqk @ gmail.com Randy Lewis



Roger Armstrong said...

Randy Lewis, aka webpqk - Quote from one of your comments on Feb.16th "I teach rapture any second".. I'm not interested in what you teach! Can you give me just one scripture that teaches this? You are clearly inferring to the pre-trib rapture, so no need to reply with another word game, like all of the other pre-taped comments you send, one after another, in about a minute... all endless rhetoric - smoke and mirrors.

I have never responded to any of these, nor will I ever... Would you attempt to have a conversation with a recording? (a rhetorical question).

I would be glad to talk to you on this mater, but in person... to the point - scripture references... one scripture stating "before" the tribulation or one scripture stating that the second coming of Christ is "two" events. You already know there isn't any - not one!

Web Pqk said...

The Second Coming of Christ "Rapture" ?
"RAPTURE" NOR THE TEACHING OF A "SECRET RAPTURE" IS TO BE FOUND IN ANY BIBLE TRANSLATION. MOREOVER,IT IS NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN ANY CHRISTIAN LITERATURE PRIOR TO the year 1833. WE WILL USE THE TERM "RAPTURE" IN THIS POST,BUT PLACE IT WHERE IT BELONGS:POST TRIBULATION!

to the point one scripture stating "before" the tribulation

Rodger pre 1833,(1) of many

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead,and quickeneth them;even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
--
rapture is a combo of many things these guys missed so to update them,it is a faith that Jesus created,and the only doctrine we preach,a dispensation only made for this event,it is a glory only ment for the hidden bride, a priesthood,a awaking & snatching away of spirits,a position & power,of only 1 hidden sect,it has many hidden steps,it is a pectoral guard,were the only ones that have a husband in heaven. we are the only 100% firstfruits, were the only one that has the key of knowledge,were the only one that actually makes peace between us and Father.we are totally free for rapture any second.we will never see the wrath of God,nor the wrath of satan we will never be allowed to go into the 7 years of tribulation.
satan our accuser as our husband & only our husband is our judge/were the only ones that get our husbands 1 book opened rewards only judgement.we are decked with white linen and gold,silver/jewels when we leave,we precede our husband anywhere when he goes into battle, we battle that old dragon in heaven & the 1/3 we follow him down for Har Megiddo,we open the east gate Isaiah 63 2nd coming
saint john saw us in heaven being rewards 1 book only opened judged.
saint John saw the Psalm 2 2nd judgement & he saw Jesus our husband/the bride there. the hidden ones the royal family counsellers judges/of the world/saints/angels
our husband is the spirit of prophecy
+ more of mysteries,ministers of Christ,& stewards of the mysteries in house of God only we do ministry of reconciliation to bring in the end of the mystery of the rapture were the only saints that are free in heaven
--

Though the term "rapture"is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up",[Latin: rapiemur]),

Etymology"Rapture" is derived from Middle French rapture, via the Medieval Latin raptura ("seizure,kidnapping"), which derives from the Latin raptus ("a carrying off").[17]

GreekThe Koine Greek of 1 Thess 4:17 uses the verb form ἁρπαγησόμεθα (harpagisometha), which means "we shall be caught up" or "taken away", with the connotation that this is a sudden event. The dictionary form of this Greek verb is harpazō (ἁρπάζω).[18] This use is also seen in such texts as Acts 8:39, 2Cor 12:2-4 and Rev 12:5.

Latin The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek ἁρπαγησόμεθα as rapiemur[19] meaning "we are caught up" or "we are taken away" from the Latin verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away".[20]

English versions of the Bible have expressed the concept of rapiemur in various ways:
The Wycliffe Bible (1395), translated from the Latin Vulgate, uses "rushed".[21]
The Tyndale New Testament (1525), the Bishop's Bible (1568), the Geneva Bible (1587) and the King James Version (1611) use "caught up".[22]
The on-line NET Bible (1995-2005) translates the Greek of 1 Thess 4:17[23] using the phrase "suddenly caught up" with the footnote: "Or 'snatched up.' The Greek verb ἁρπάζω implies that the action is quick or forceful,so the translation supplied the adverb 'suddenly' to make this implicit notion clear."

webpqk at gmail. com Randy Lewis rapture any second you can write that down in your bible
what nobody knows is the second the rapture dispensation end

Roger Armstrong said...

Randy, first I apologize for being a bit curt in responding to you on the 25th... your attitude was good in your reply. And thanks' for addressing my question, i.e., one scripture stating (Christ returns) Before the tribulation.

You used John 5:21, thinking this to be the most solid verse to prove that Christ comes Before the tribulation. So, does it? Let's look... John 5:21, (paraphrased) "... just like the Father raises the dead... so shall (Jesus) the Son... Okay, let's put this statement by Jesus in the context of what He started (at v-19) speaking about... skip down to verses 28,29, these two verses are clearly talking about the Resurrection... so is this on the FIRST DAY of the Tribulation? or the LAST Day?

For the answer continue on in this same book to John 6:40, Jesus clearly says the (Resurrection) is on the LAST DAY.
So the so called Rapture is at the end of the tribulation, not before! On the Last Day!

So, in my opinion, the verse you attempted to use as solid scripture to support your view where Christ comes before the tribulation is just an assumption. I did read all of your above statements but found them to be assumptions, with all due respect - a wall of words - nothing solid to prove your point - assuming this means that and etc... and you truly believe it does.

Now, you didn't respond to the second part of my question... to give me solid scripture proof that the second coming of Christ is two events? He has already come to this earth once, leaving one more event, not two. And in this event we will be "caught up" to meet Him in the "cloud" area of the sky, not to heaven. The Bible is silent about a so called secret coming for his saints... it is one event and yes, for his saints, at the end.

Yes, I am aware of the Greek words, I use the Strong's rendering of these words as I study the KJV. Very difficult for us growing up in this culture, as you know, to really understand the etymology of the words they used in this ancient culture. Many intellectual bible teachers can, if they so chose, say the Greek says this or that, when in fact, we can pick and chose from the Greek as well... and, the vast majority of Christians can be, and are, easily deceived. This is not to say that most of these educated teachers are trying to deceive us... it's just that they are accidently picking one of the many renderings that they can chose from the Greek and they will most likely pick the one that backs a certain agenda they may have. It's an assumption, may or may not be right.

Sorry for the wall of words, but, I did not throw a long list of assumptions at you... using this kind of logic, one can make God's Word support any agenda the person may have. If this dialogue were to continue my future responses' will be brief. I don't have the time to prove or disprove assumptions - what we think such and such means. It's endless...








Tammy L said...

I have come to the conclusion that Randy Lewis is absolutely not in any way shape or form of the Lord.
The bible verses he sticks together do not come close to saying what he apparently thinks it all says. Not even remotely. He gives no explanation of what makes him think these verses say what he thinks they say, and is under a delusion of grandeur that he has the only interpretation of the word of God.

I must say it looks rather demonic in how his eyes are just hidden from the truth of God's word.

We know Roger that God gives us the holy Spirit and the holy Spirit interprets the word the same to every one of it's readers. There is no private interpretation of the word given to anyone. 2 Peter 1:20.

This guy just comes back mish mashes verses together that do not equal what he obviously thinks they equal. Nowhere in the word is there such thing as two brides the word tells us we are all one in Christ, no male no female no Jew no Greek all one in Christ, Galatians 3:28.

This guy says its a secret why would God keep secrets from His own? As a matter of fact God said this very thing, Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. But nope Randy would have us believe that the Lord gave Randy only some truth that is for no other human being on this earth.

So I am going to delete and block this from ever coming into my email again because this guy is a lunatic without a clue and not a drop of truth in him, and I cannot stand those who lie and are deceived who go and deceive others, or try too.

Roger Armstrong said...

Yes I agree. Just asked him for one solid scripture that states Christ comes before the tribulation to take out His saints. Or at least, give me one verse stating the second coming is two events.

He came back with John 5:21, as his best, and only answer. Easy to see, when putting this verse in context with a few verses before and after, that Jesus is talking about the resurrection... and Jesus even goes on in John 6:40, and tells us that this resurrection takes place on the LAST DAY! I don't think the last day happens 7 years before the last day?

So, apparently that's the best he can do, so responds with an endless wall of words... all assumptions.

(surly someone reading this that believes Christ is going to take them out before the tribulation, can do better than John 5:21, as this man did?)

Dorothy Essary said...

The "rapture" will definitely take place after the tribulation. The Bible is clear about this. I have written a book entitled "Armageddon 2026, a Look at Events Just Ahead" detailing when the signs Jesus gave in Matthew, Mark and Luke will come to pass based on the scripture, history and science. As pointed out, Jesus said we are children of the day, not of the night that that day should overtake us unawares. He would not have spent time telling of the signs to look for if he did not expect anyone to figure it out.

If you or any of your followers would like to see how I deciphered the clues about his coming and events up to and including Armageddon, which all point to the year 2026, "Armageddon 2026, A Look at Events Just Ahead" can be purchased in paperback or eBook format from my website Armageddon2026.com. There is also a sample chapter from the book about the regathering of Israel and its significance to end-time events.

Anonymous said...

Bless you for this page.

Michael Phelps said...

While I appreciate the author(s) sincerity is it possible to be sincerely wrong? I am referring to the opening statement that the rapture is not mentioned in the Bible. When we refer to the Bible, which one? In my humble opinion while there are no mistakes there are multiple "unfortunate renderings" in the KJV. My wise mentor has often reminded me to remain teachable. In the "2nd Latin Vulgate we may discover the term rapture in the book of Thess. Moreover I do not consider my salvation predicated upon non-kingdom principles I recognize the rapture is in fact Pre Trib. An appreciation of our Hebraic roots in Christianity can reveal that Orthodox Jews understood exegetically the contrast between first trumpet and the "Last Trumpet". Herein resides the seed of confusing element for the goyim. As a result Gentile Christians mistakenly draw the idea rapture is Mid and for some Post. The key to understanding is the term "Last Trump" or Trump Hagadol. The fact pattern for Pre Trib can be understood by due diligence discovering a half dozen reasons of support.

Roger Armstrong said...

With all due respect... I don't see your point? You state that the so-called rapture is pre-trib, yet offer no proof? You further state that we should remain teachable... if you have anything to teach (scripture) that would back up your pre-trib view... I'm listening.

Web Pqk said...

Hi Rodger,Jesus/ made Christ rapture church body the dispensation of the wise hidden ones Gentile rapture bride, Lamb's 2nd wife (other sheep) will not stop until Romans 11:25 spirit taken 1st then the vile body taken lastly .

you were looking for pre trib pre wrath rapture proof

Saul to Paul Acts 9 to Hebrews,Hebrews the book of the highest priesthood,of Christ & the bride.Lamb's 2nd wife,
High priests of the highest priesthood .
Both are also judges-counseller's,church of Christ His Gentile church of the 1st born of 1st fruits.

Were very old, made before the earth and heavens above (holy heavenly called-awoke out of due time- we are the 100% first borns of 1st fruits of the church of the first fruits.)

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us,and called us with an holy calling,not according to our works,but according to his own purpose and grace,which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.


No tribulation no wrath spirit rapture happening every second,holy heavenly calling,or caught up,spring up,ransom them, chasteneth, and scourgeth,plucked them out

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

He will pluck out "rapture,HIS hidden wise bride" then come back for 2nd judgement
Jeremiah 12:15 And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return,
and have compassion on them, and will bring them again, every man to his heritage,
and every man to his land.

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:


Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;
not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
----
celestial- spirit rapture born first - born from above - holy heavenly called - made vessels of mercy,by hidden wise Gospel of peace the Gentile gospel of the mystery's gospel of uncircumcision - 1 corin 15:1-4 then 5-58 more Gentile doctrine of godliness 2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

1 Timothy 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

Jesus spirit rapture body dispensation concludes taking our bodys/how & when we come back
webpqk@ gmail.com Randy Lewis


Web Pqk said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Web Pqk said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Roger Armstrong said...

Randy, I deleted your last two lengthy comments as they were just more endless rambling of analogies. I asked a fair question several days ago... one scripture stating that Jesus returns before the tribulation or one stating that the second coming of Christ is two events? A fair question! Just say the truth - you don't have one! Dumping a truck load of assumptions (what you believe these verses say) on me proves nothing. Not only that, but you ran off all three of these in three minutes... impossible! More than likely a prerecorded tape... I will no longer respond to these.

Can anyone reading this that believes in the pre-trib., give me one scripture stating Jesus returns for His church BEFORE the tribulation or one that states the second coming of Christ is two events? If not... why do you believe this?

Anonymous said...

I must say I have been confused, and discouraged even, by the arguments I have heard for and against the pre-trib rapture. Mostly, I have felt a deep unease whenever I tried to accept the pre-trib doctrine. I have a deep-seated urge to prepare for difficult times ahead -- a feeling almost compulsory. And it seemed like pre-trib belief not only discourages such preparatory measures, it also attributed taking steps to prepare for dark times as a lack of faith, in and of itself (because no true follower of Christ would be around for the troubles, so if you are preparing then you lack faith). I felt a deep sense of unease at this blithe refusal to prepare -- to me it is like a drowning man pushing away a floating branch because he MUST trust in God to save him -- meanwhile, God sent the branch to save him.
This study really helped clear my head on this issue, and gave me some personal peace. It also crystalized a clear idea in my head: if the Book of Revelation was directed towards Christians (who else would read it), then why would Jesus take the trouble to WARN his own followers of a danger that did not exist for them? All we need to do is believe in the easy times and we will escape -- why was such a warning directed to the churches (current believers) if they truly had nothing to worry about? Read the Olivet discourse: why would Jesus warn his followers not to be deceived DURING the tribulation if they were not going to be around DURING the tribulation.
And warnings with such detail, down to making us aware that we should avoid taking a special mark to buy or sell? And if only non-believers and unsaved people are on the Earth, then who are the "elect" that are deceived during the tribulation?
I think we are being told to prepare both spiritually for a great deception, and physically for a great travail -- the parable of the virgins I believe is talking about existing believers: the wise ones had both burning lamps (spiritual faith) and extra oil (extra fuel to keep the fire alight through a long darkness -- physical sustenance), the foolish ones had lit lamps (faith) but no extra oil (not enough to see them through a long darkness - their lack of preparation and simple physical desperation can cause their fire to diminish and go out - and be deceived in the darkness). We are being forewarned of dark and deeply troubling times so that we can prepare to face them, and know that these things must come to pass, and to survive in faith through the dark times with the revealed knowledge that there is a perfect purpose to God's plan and that there is a perfect light at the end of the tunnel. The wise virgins heeded the warning and brought EXTRA oil, while the foolish virgins had their normal amount of oil. I do think God will assist those that heed the warning in preparing.

ChrisMP. said...

Anonymous posted some great insights to think about. Absolutely on the mark in my opinion.

Roger Armstrong said...

Yes, I too agree that the above anonymous posting at 12:01 PM, used excellent logic in all that he/she stated.

I might also add from Revelation 20:5, "...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for their witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Clearly this is the church in this time period! No secret so-called rapture here... that's why Jesus told us that the False Christ comes first in 2nd Thes.2:3, and for us not to be deceived!

Anonymous said...


RAPTURE perhaps JUNE 14, 2018..............been wrong MANY times, but the following seems reasonable:


SIGNING (Netanyahu w/ a.c.....related to Iran agreement/water???.....likely JUNE 11, which is:
......40 days to AV 9 (Ezek 38 Divine Victory in Israel)...and AV 9 minus the tilt is Tammuz 17
......22 days (will minus) past SHAVUOT (May 20)...thus Signing will be 'as on SHAVUOT'
......75 days past NISAN 15 (will be APR 15 in Millen.....and Apr 15 (Nis 17) = trib end.
......5 solar mths (as Noah's 150) past Jan 11 (really Dec 31, orig Tev 1, Jesus' Concep/Hag 2)
......+1260 = mid trib, Abom Desol, SAGIT 1
......+2520 = Return, TAURUS 15, 2025 (minus 22 = NISAN 17, Tues/Apr 15, earth straight
......+2550 = Isa 63 into Temple GEMINI 15 (mid sign...twins), June 4, 2025 (2300 past I ADAR 10, 2019)

JUNE 14 RAPTURE is GEMINI 24 (10th sign/888).......also 10 x 24 = 240 (240,000 mi to moon).

May 14, 2018..70 yrs....(Iyyar 29...Embassy) +22 +7 (as last warn) = THUR, JUNE 14 Rapture.

AV 9, 2018 (July 21.....Ezek 38 Victory) +7 mths burying = I Adar 9, Feb 14.....+1 = I Adar 10.....then +2300 days Temple Desecration is JUNE 4, 2025.

Trib end is LEO 1.....since any TAURUS 15 (mid Bull/Deut 33:17) +75 days = Leo 1.

TEVET 1, 2016 (5777) +280 (Church gest) = TISH 15 (Succoth 2017) + 6 mths to get to Nisan 15,....then +75 days = Signing.

"4 mths (as Noah's 120) to Harvest" = SHAVUOT 2017 +120 = TISH 10 (Yom Kip)....then +6 mths to Nisan 15, 2018 +75 = Signing.

ANY 40 +210 (7 mths bury) +2300 = 2550.

NISAN 10, 2018 +80 (completion of a Millen yr...280+80=360) is the Signing.

Elijah and Moses rise on KISLEV 24, 2021.(Hag 2).

Earth is STRAIGHT by NISAN 17 (w/ tilt loss considered).

Earth is STRAIGHT by JUNE 7 (w/out the tilt loss considered.....but w/ 3 days straightening).

Remnant gestation: TEVET 1, 2023 +280 days = SUCCOTH/TISH 15, 2025 +6 mths to NISAN 15, 2025.

JUNE 7, 2018 (anniv of biggest day in modern history....June 7, 1967....+7 days (last warning) is JUNE 14 (Rapture)......and JUNE 7, 2025 is the Isa 63 Temple Entrance.....2557 (7 solar yrs) past JUNE 7, 2018.

Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I still have a date in mind; but I know the sharing of such is likely futile at this point.....understandable.




Roger Armstrong said...

Clearly you believe in a pre-trib rapture and thus have wasted a lot of time with all of the above math. You have only left yourself less than two days for the false Christ to be revealed. Because Jesus states very clearly in 2nd Thes.2:3, that the false Christ comes first (before Jesus returns) And, I might add, after this there will be a seven year tribulation period... Then Jesus says He will return after the tribulation of those days (Mark 13:22-27).

Wayne Myers said...

"And we will know seven years after the signing of the
covenant of Daniel 9:27, the Lord Jesus Christ will return." The 70th week is half over. Christ (Abraham's Seed) CONFIRMED The Covenant in the middle of that week (AFTER the 62 weeks (see Gal. 3)). AC's reign is 3 1/2 years (Tribulation), not seven. How could he possibly "sign a treaty" (which isn't in MY Bible)? Anyway, how could he BREAK it, when Christ returns at the end of THAT 3 1/2 year period? THINK about THAT!

Wayne Myers said...

Amazes me how WE ALL speak with such authority, when WE SPECULATE!

Roger Armstrong said...

Wayne, yes, that is the problem - SPECULATION. About 95% of evangelical Christian churches are, in my opinion, teaching the false doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture. Clearly not in God's Word... yet believed by most.??? This was built on a postulate (assume to be true) SPECULATION!

My entire post was an attempt to expose this doctrine as false. I did not speculate into anything new... only responding to the scriptures that these three pastor's used on that day.

Furthermore, I didn't go into any details about the tribulation period, I just wanted to make Christians aware of the fact that we might be in this ourselves and should be prepared.

Daniel 9:27, does not call this a treaty... rather a "covenant" which really is the same thing. Yes, the tribulation itself seems to be 3 1/2 years but this is the last half of the 70th week of Daniel which, as you know, is a seven year period. My opinion, also the vast majority believe this as well.

No problem here... thank you for your comment.