Endtimes Conference Proves Post-Trib Rapture

     Bible verses used to prove the "Pre-Tribulation" Rapture,
                  instead  proves this event to be false

 …  at this Calvary Chapel Men's Conference on March 3rd, '07,
held at Little Country Church in Redding, California, and attended
by 800+ men. Here the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was taught where,
(they claim)  Christians are removed from the earth,  seven years
prior to the true Second Coming of Christ that clearly takes place
after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-26). So, the aforementioned Pre-
tribulation  rapture  event  would involve a manifest contradiction, 
Two Second Comings?

                               (place cursor on above verse, and verses through-out)

Furthermore, there is not  a scripture in the entire Bible that states
Christians are removed  before  the tribulation. This  extra event is
documented to have begun in the 1830s (we cover this later). So, in
the 1800 years prior to this time were all of the great church fathers
such as: (see quotes by) Justin Martyr (98-167),Tertullian (150-220)  Cyprian (201-258)   Augustine (354-430),  etc... Not smart enough to figure out  that the church would  not  be on the earth to face the Antichristbut instead be taken out in a pre-trib rapture? Not smart enough? - for 1800 years???

     Also consider
We are specifically told in II Thes.2:3-4 KJV, 
     that the  false christ comes first(Place cursor on verse)

The three senior pastors  who spoke at this  Endtime Conference
used  nine   scriptures  to prove the  pre-trib  rapture.   However,
out of the nine they used,  seven were taken out of context,  and
the other two were based on assumptions_______ Below are the  
 Nine scriptures  they thought were the best to support their view, 
and below each a brief explanation, with scripture reference, that
show  they were twisted to fit the false  pre-trib  theory. We have
listed them in the exact same order they were presented that day:

                    1  of  9 ...I Corinthians 15:51-52

51 "Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed, 
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, 
at the  last trump;  for the trumpet shall sound,  and the  dead       
shall  be  raised  incorruptible,  and  we  shall  be  changed."

Read verse 52 in the above very slowly, think about the order
(sequence) God inspired Paul to list these  three events:

__At the  last trump  (7th).  Rev.11:15.  1 Cor.15:52.  

__The  dead shall be raised   (first Resurrection).

3 __And  we shall be changed   (raptured).

The key is #2 above: Do we know when the resurrection will be?
Yes! Jesus Himself told us in John 6:40, and John 6:44, that the
 Resurrection  is on the Last day  (see also John 11:24). So, if
the Resurrection is on the Last Day, as stated by Jesus, and in
I Cor.15:52,  Paul  lists  the  Rapture  after  the  Resurrection:  
"... and the dead shall be raised... and we shall be changed."
Paul  has  told  us  the  "sequence" of these 3 events and Jesus
told us "when"... On the  Last Day!   (John 6:40)   Note #1----->

...Is this such a difficult concept to comprehend? Clearly, these
two verses teach a Post-Tribulation Rapture  at the  Second
Coming of ChristHow can the  Last Trumpet sound__then
the__ Resurrection of the dead (in Christ), and the__Rapture,
all take place  seven  years __ before __ the Last Day?

                    2  of  9
 I Thessalonians 4:16

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,  and with the  trump  of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

Again the word  "trump"  is used,  but the Thessalonians  were
unclear as to "when" this would happen. Paul apparently heard
that they were troubled  about this,  so he then wrote a  second
letter to clear this up, and this reads as follows:

II Thessalonians 2:1-4"Now we beseech you, brethren, by
the  coming  of  our  Lord  Jesus Christ,  and our gathering
together (
i.e. rapture) unto him,         2   That ye be not soon
shaken in mind,_or be troubled,_neither by spirit,_or by word,
nor by letter from us, _as that the _day of Christ _ is at hand.
 3  Let no man_ deceive you_ by any means:   for__ that
shall not come_
except there come a *falling away  first, and
that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" ( false christ).

*Falling away,  
is #646  "APOSTASIA"  in the  Strong's  (Greek)
 Concordance, and translates "Defection from the truth, apostasy."

In this  second letter Paul, this time  makes it  very clear that
the false christ comes first and, (v-3) not to let anyone deceive
you. Then, referring back to the first letter he wrote,"Then (after
the false Christ)  the Lord descends,  with a shout,  with the voice
of the arch angel, with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ
shall  rise  first." Obviously  the  Resurrection has to take place 
before there can be a Rapture! So  when  is  this resurrection? 
Jesus Himself tells us in John 6:40, It's on the Last Day! 

This  is  the second coming of Christ,  after  the tribulation. 
So, with this  second letter  Paul is making it clear that this 
trump  is not  before  the tribulation it's  after.  There are 7
trumpets  that sound
in the book of Revelation... Obviously
the 7th Trump is the Last!

                    3  of  9 ...
 Revelation 3:10

"Because thou has kept the word of my patience,   I also  will
keep thee from the hour of temptation, that shall come upon
all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Notice that Jesus says,  "...I will keep thee from..."   He does
not say, "...take thee out of..."  So, for a better understanding
of  Rev.3:10 KJV, Let's prove the Bible, with the Bible, and not
assume anything._ Let's let Jesus clarify this verse, which He
does in John 17:15 KJV, "I pray not that thou take them out of
the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil." 

Jesus  clearly says___not  to take them out__in John 17:15.
So, how can the__I will keep thee from__in Rev.3:10__mean
"I will take thee out of ?"  

(The Greek interpretation of "Keep thee  from"     Note #3--->

God's wrath does not fall on us,"only those who have the mark
of the beast" (Rev 16:2). And those who  "do not have the seal
of God" (Rev 9:4). Like the "144 thousand" of Rev. 7:3, we have
the seal of God._ See Eph.1:13 "...after you believed, you were
sealed..."  And Eph.4:30,   "...you  are sealed  unto the day of
redemption." There are several verses that clearly state, after we
accept Christ, we are sealed, (protected from God's wrath).

                                     4  of  9 ... Matthew 24:27

"For as the lighting cometh out of the east,  and shineth even
unto the west; so shall also the coming of the son of man be."

Go down two verses,  Matt.24:29 tells you  "when"  this will  be:
"Immediately__ after the tribulation__ of those days..."  Now
Matt.24:30 "...then shall appear the sign of the son of man..."
Now, Matt.24:31, "...with the great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall gather together  (
rapture)  his elect... "    Again the
same trumpet as in other verses, now back to Matt.24:26, Jesus
tells them not to believe people that tell you that He  (Jesus)  is
in a secret place (like a secret pre-trib rapture). So, the above
verse... Matt.24:27,  as you can see, was clearly taken out of
the context of the scriptures before and after this verse.

                    5  of  9 ... Matthew 25:1-13

The parable of the "ten virgins" ___ Here  Jesus  does not
talk about the "time" of His return,  because He had just told
them a few minutes before about the time, (see the paragraph
before this one Matt.24:29 definitely after the tribulation).
The Wedding Feast can only take place after the tribulation,
because the Resurrection doesn't happen until the Last day.

Jesus said three times that the Resurrection is on the Last
Day (John 6:40,  44,  54). _ Then the bridegroom  (Jesus)
goes into the wedding feast after the second coming of Christ,
and guess who else is at this Wedding Feast?       1   The Old
Testament saints.    2  The tribulation saints.    3  The prophets.
 4  The 144 thousand new Christians.    There would have to be
two wedding feasts__two resurrections__two second comings,
and two Last Days, for the "pre-trib" to work.          Note #4--->

                    6  of  9 ...
 Mark 13:6-37

In this entire chapter  Jesus is talking about  the events  that
happen during the tribulation,  and that they were   not   to
look for Him until   after   certain events happen,  then in
Mark 13:24-27,  "...after  the tribulation of those days,
then they shall see Him.."
 So Jesus again told them He's

coming back  after  the tribulation,  making this a  post
tribulation rapture
at the Second Coming of Christ.

                    7  of  9 ...
Luke 21:6-38

Basically  this chapter is the same  as the above chapter,  where
Jesus returns_after_the tribulation,  at the  second coming of
Christ,  except in v-36,  He says, "....pray that you be accounted
worthy to escape all these things...
" What things? All 21 plagues

that God uses to punish evil men; "...men which had the mark of
the beast..
"(Rev.16:2), and "..
those men which have not the seal
of God...
" (Rev.9:4). What makes us worthy to escape all these

things?  Accepting the  Lord Jesus Christ  as our Saviour, and
being an overcomer, which includes_not_taking_the mark of the
beast. So, we will escape all these things,  because we  have the
seal of God  (Eph.1:13, Eph.4:30,  II Cor 1:22, and John 6:27).
We are
protected from God's wrath,  like the 144000  (Rev.7:4).

Greek rendering of "escape" put in the proper context. Note #5-->

                    8  of  9 ...
II Peter 3:10

"...The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night."

Now let's let the Bible prove the Bible and go to I Thes. 5:2, where
the exact same words are used, "..the Day of the Lord so cometh
as a thief in the night."
 Then in I Thes.5:4,  (paraphrased)  "But

[we] are not in darkness that this day should overtake [us] as
a thief.
"  Why? Because I Thes.5:5,  "...[we]
  are children of the
" So, we will know!   (I inserted "we"  for "you"  
Peter and Paul's letters were to the Gentiles (non Jews_"us").

                    9  of  9 ...
Revelation 22:12 (KJV)

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me..."

"So, when does He give out rewards?  See Rev.11:15 and 18 
"And the 7th angel sounded..[its time]..that thou give rewards
..unto the saints
..."_It's after the 7th trump!!__At the end!

Rewards are given out  after  the post-trib resurrection/
rapture, after the Second Coming of Christ.

Now, the nine verse references listed above_was all that was
presented to prove the "Pre-Trib" rapture by the three pastors at
this conference. You can see that they were all taken out of
context, or based on assumptions, because all nine clearly support  the post-tribulation view instead. I believe  this new
(1830's) pre-trib doctrine was built on fear; not trusting that
God will carry them through this time when the church will
be needed the most.... 

                          Giants in the Land....

......God was angry with the 10 spies, who made Israel fear
Giants in the land God promised to t
hem, (Num.13:1-2),
and  they were afraid  to go in,  (Num.13:31 KJV) 
(Num.13:33 KJV).  
We are doing the same thing today by

fearing  the  "Giant" (Antichrist)  we add  "pre-trib"  to
God's word, without a single verse to prove it, this is very
dangerous,  (see Rev. 22:18).  It is not  my intent to belittle
these three pastors, I'm sure they are sincere Christians, but
if they can't come up with one single verse that  specifically
places this event before the tribulation, who can? Note #6--->

It's really very simple, if it's not in God's Word, it's not going to
happen. Again, I want to repeat that these nine scriptures was
all that was used to prove the "pre-trib" rapture that day, I was
there! The senior pastor of this large church has read this article,
and we exchanged a few Emails, and he did not question that
these were the scriptures that were used. He believes that he is
teaching the truth, and so do I... One of us is wrong, but we are
still Christian brothers.

                                  Left Behind...

Some may ask: What difference does it make if Christ returns
before the tribulation, or after?_ There are sincere Christians on
both sides. However, the Bible says in I Thes.5:21, to "prove all
things."_And in II Tim.4:4,"And they shall turn away their ears
from the truth, and shall be turned into fables" (fiction). We see
this in the  "Left Behind"  book and movie, with cars and planes
crashing, etc. Millions are killed before the tribulation even starts,
when all these people still have/had a chance to be saved during
this time. The reality is the truth was  'Left Behind' in the making
of this movie! Yet it sells well in the religious marketplaces.  The
Pre Tribulation Rapture doctrine has become amusement for the
masses, a multi billion dollar business.                   
Note #7---->

Update on the above "Left Behind" topic as of  4/22/2016:

Kirk Cameron,  the star of this movie  has changed  to  the
Post-Trib rapture view, now preaches  against  the Pre-trib. 
He states: "The pre-trib rapture is a total hoax and a fraud."
And he turned down a role in a new  "Left Behind"  sequel...

(Just Google  "Kirk Cameron, Post-Trib Rapture")

The "pre-trib" view is a relatively new doctrine, you won't
find pre-trib writings or documents in any church history until
about the year 1830. Edward Irving, (Catholic Apostolic Church)
and soon after, John Darby, (Plymouth Brethren) both of England,
were teaching the pre-tribulation rapture. _However, the most
important reason for the acceptance of this "pre-trib" rapture
view in the United States was the Scofield Reference Bible as well
as the Dake Study Bible. In the footnotes Scofield split the second
coming of Christ into two events:

 Coming "for" the saints,   Coming "with" the saints (seven 

years later). Below is a quote from a well known Christian author
who lived
at the time this false theory was being introduced:

Robert Cameron (1845-1922):
"The Coming for, and the Coming with, the Saints, still

persists, although it involves a manifest contradiction,
two Second Comings which is an absurdity."
(Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p.639).

(There is a link at the end of this post where you can view brief
quotes by 30 of these renown church fathers, from 33AD to the
late 1800s; all taught the church would face the false christ).

If such a major event as the "pre-trib" rapture is true, why
isn't it found in Old Testament prophecy?__or in Jesus'
own teaching?__or His disciples?__or any of the New
Testament writers?__Jesus said in Mark 13:23, "I have
foretold you all things." He would have told us!!!

Others may say: That, "the tribulation is only for the 144,000"
And then they go on to say that these are the people that God
uses in this time to bring people to Christ. This may be true, in
part, but look at Rev. 7:1,2,3,4 where God puts a seal on this
small group. And because of this seal, they are protected!!
The woman (Israel/144,000) is protected in the last 3 1/2 years
of the tribulation (Rev. 12:13-14).

This, in turn, makes the serpent(Satan) angry, so he goes after
us in Rev.12:17, those who have"the testimony of Jesus Christ." Again, go back to Rev. 7:9, "After this (sealing of the 144000) I beheld, and look, a great multitude... of all nations... " Now skip
to Rev.7:13, who are these people, and where did they come from? Rev.7:14,"these are they that came out of great tribulation ..." And God just stated in Rev 12:13-14, that the woman (Israel)
is protected. So, who do you think this great multitude is, that
has the testimony of Jesus Christ if it's not us??__These are
martyred believers during the great tribulation (Rev.20:4).

, there are untold millions, along with the 144,000 Israelites who
are in this period of time. To say this time is only for them to
deal with is a "cop out" and just another assumption and not
valid. They base this on Isaiah 45:4 where Israel is called God's
"elect" (
KJV), so then in Matt. 24:31, when Jesus sends his angels
to gather His "elect" after the tribulation, that this event (the
second Coming of Christ) is only for the 144,000 who have to go
through the tribulation._After we (non Jews/Israelites) accept
Jesus Christ as our Savior, we become God's elect. I'll back up
this statement with Paul's letters to non Israelites, the Galatians
and the Colossians:

1   Gal.3:28-29 (paraphrased)"There is neither Jew or Greek,
you are all one in Christ...you also are Abraham's seed..."

 2   Col 3:11-12,
"...there is neither Greek or Jew...but Christ
is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the __Elect of God...."

3   I Peter 1:1-2, Peter writes a letter to different nationalities
and calls them the _"elect of God"_ because they have been
"washed in the blood of the Lamb"__ like we have been.
So, Israel_"and"_the church_"are"_God's elect!!

Jesus has one bride!
He created the miracle of uniting Jew
and Gentile alike into one bride. Let's just "reason together",
does it make any sense that Jesus would rapture out a partial
bride? What parts would He take first? And then...what? pick
up the other parts later - with whatever results the 144,000
are able to accomplish during the last 3 1/2 years? Why would
Jesus remove only some?

And... if He was going to do this, don't you think He would have
told us? At least one verse stating that He was going to take some

out first?  Jesus said in  Mark 13:23, "I have foretold you all
things."  He would have told us!!

Furthermore, do you suppose Jesus would have the wedding

feast with His "raptured" church (bride), without the tribulation saints, the  Old Testament saints,  the prophets or the 144,000? Let's think about this__are we really this special?  Compared to these four other groups?

I am going to add a few scriptures, (that were not mentioned
at this conference) that are also used to support the pre-trib
rapture, so that you will have a complete list of all the verses,
assumptions and analogies this "new" doctrine was based on:

  Matt. 24:40, "... One shall be taken, and the other left."

Notice that Jesus made this statement just minutes after He

had told them "Immediately after the tribulation of those days."
(Matt.24:29). That's when "one will be taken and and the other
left"  Not seven years before!   Put it in context!

                        The Noah Analogy...

2   Many analogies are used by the Pre-Trib Rapture teachers,
for lack of scriptural proof. However, Noah is their main one,
so I will deal with this one. Everyone is aware of the fact that
Noah warned the people that a flood is coming and to repent,
but _they refused to listen.       The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
teachers say  "that's like the rapture",   so as Noah was saved
out of the flood, we will be "raptured" out of the Tribulation.
It's an analogy!!__An assumption!!

Did the flood come upon Noah, as well as the rest of the world
unawares? Let's read Gen.7:1 and Gen.7:4 and see. "And the
said unto Noah...For in seven days, I will cause it to rain upon
the earth..." OK, so it does appear that Noah knew ahead of time
when the flood was going to come...
Note #9---->

… It was the world that did not know. Very important to notice
that Noah knew seven days before the exact day the flood would
start. And we will know seven years after the signing of the

covenant of Daniel 9:27, the Lord Jesus Christ will return.

… Also notice that Noah and family (God's people) were carried
through the flood... not out of!  Furthermore the 3 Hebrews
were carried through the fire... not out of!


3   Mark 13:32, is also used_"But of that day and that hour
knoweth no man..."
_Jesus told them this a few minutes after
telling them
in Mark 13:24 "..in those days after that tribulation,
the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
And goes on to say in Mark 13:28-29 that we will know
this day is close because next He says in Mark 13:30... that the
generation that sees these things (the tribulation events), would

(back to Mark 13:26-27) "...see the Son of man coming in the
clouds.....to gather His elect from the...uttermost parts of the 
Paul states in 1st Thes.5:4,
"we are not in darkness
that this day will come upon us as a
thief." Why? Because in
the next verse (1st Thes.5:5), "we are
children of the light..."   
However, right now no one knows,
but when the covenant of
Daniel 9:27 KJV is signed, we will know
to within a few weeks.  

Some people ask me,  "why is it  that  in  America  the  vast
Christians believe in the pre-trib?"_When Jesus 
came to the  earth  the  first  time, the  vast majority  of  the
religious people
(the church) of that time, rejected him, even
after  many  Old
Testament  prophets foretold  of this event.
But they didn't  want
suffering  Messiah,  they  wanted a conquering king. In this case the vast majority was wrong!! 

Important to read a list of one paragraph quotes from 30 of  the 
Early Church Fathers  such as:  Barnabas (30-102),  Justin Martyr
(98-167),     Augustine (354-430),     Bernard  (1090-1153)),    etc. 
They all taught that the church would be on the earth during the
reign of the Antichrist.


Early Church Fathers             Endtime Empire

                      Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

                      Eternal Security - Fact or Fiction?


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