The Bible verses used to prove the "Pre-Trib" Rapture,
instead prove the "Post-Trib" Rapture, at...
...this men's conference at Country Church in Redding, CA.,
attended by about 800 men__ Common sense should tell us that
...this men's conference at Country Church in Redding, CA.,
attended by about 800 men__ Common sense should tell us that
there can't be two Second Comings, Heb.9:28 KJV (paraphrased):
"...He comes once as a suffering Messiah, then a second time....
unto salvation." No_third_time mentioned in God's word, nor is
there any mention of dividing the second coming into two events.
So, let's reason together, He has already been here_once, which
would leave one more event: The_ second_ coming of Christ,
that the Bible clearly states occurs after the great tribulation.
Furthermore, there isn't a single scripture in the entire Bible that
Furthermore, there isn't a single scripture in the entire Bible that
states Christians are removed before the Tribulation. If anyone
can find one, would you please Email me? Then, I promise you, I
would remove this web page from every search engine. Please, no
assumptions, analogies or verses taken out of context.
The three senior pastors that spoke at this "Endtime Conference"
used nine scriptures to prove the "pre-trib" rapture. However,
out of the nine they used, seven were taken out of context, and
the other two were based on assumptions._ Below are the nine
scriptures they used to "try" to prove this:
.............. All verses quoted are KJV, for an instant reference in the
.............. English Standard Version, place cursor on chapter/verse.
#1. I Corinthians 15:51-52
51"Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead
shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Read the last two lines in the above verse slowly, think about the
"order" (sequence) God inspired Paul to list these three events:
#1 The Last Trump, #2 The Resurrection of the dead,
#3 The Rapture of the living (i.e.,we shall be changed). Paul
would have listed the Rapture first, instead of third, if this was
to be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Also Jesus states three times in
John 6:40, 44, and 54, the resurrection is on the Last day (see
also John 11:24). So, if the. Resurrection is on the Last Day,
as stated by Jesus, and in I Cor 15:52, Paul lists the Rapture...
after the Resurrection. Paul has told us the "sequence" of
these (3) events and Jesus told us "when", (on the Last Day).
Is this such a difficult concept to comprehend? Clearly, these two
verses teach a......Post-Tribulation Rapture, at the Second
Coming of Christ. How can the.....Last Trumpet sound....then...
..the Resurrection of the dead in Christ...and the rapture happen...
..seven years....before....the Last Day ? ?
#3 The Rapture of the living (i.e.,we shall be changed). Paul
would have listed the Rapture first, instead of third, if this was
to be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Also Jesus states three times in
John 6:40, 44, and 54, the resurrection is on the Last day (see
also John 11:24). So, if the. Resurrection is on the Last Day,
as stated by Jesus, and in I Cor 15:52, Paul lists the Rapture...
after the Resurrection. Paul has told us the "sequence" of
these (3) events and Jesus told us "when", (on the Last Day).
Is this such a difficult concept to comprehend? Clearly, these two
verses teach a......Post-Tribulation Rapture, at the Second
Coming of Christ. How can the.....Last Trumpet sound....then...
..the Resurrection of the dead in Christ...and the rapture happen...
..seven years....before....the Last Day ? ?
#2. I Thes.4:16
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first."
Again the word "trump" is used, but the Thessalonian's were
unclear as to "when" this would happen. Paul apparently heard
that they were troubled about this, so he then wrote a_second
letter_to clear this up, and this reads as follows:
II Thes. 2:1,2,3,4, 1 "Now we beseech you, brothren, by
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering
together (i.e. rapture) unto him,___ 2 That ye be not soon
shaken in mind,_or be troubled,_neither by spirit,_or by word,
nor by letter from us, _as that the _day of Christ_ is at hand.
3 Let no man_deceive you_by any means: for_ that day
shall not come_except there come a falling away first, and
that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (i.e. false christ)
"Falling away," is #646 "APOSTASIA" in the Strong's (Greek)
Concordance, and translates: "Defection from the truth, apostasy."
In this, second letter, Paul, this time_ makes it _very clear
that the false Christ_ comes first,__and (v-3) not to let anyone
deceive you. Then, referring back to the first letter he wrote, then
(after the false Christ) the Lord descends, with a shout, with the
voice of the arch angel, with the"trump" of God: and the dead in
Christ shall rise first. This is the second coming of Christ, after
the tribulation_ So, with this_second letter_Paul is making
it clear that this "trump"_is not before the tribulation_it's
after!! It's a post-tribulation rapture, on the Last Day!!
#3. Revelation 3:10
"Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will
keep thee from the hour of temptation, that shall come upon
all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Notice that Jesus says, "....I will keep thee from....." He does
not say, "...take thee out of..." So, for a better understanding
of Rev. 3:10, Lets prove the Bible, with the Bible, and not assume
anything._ Lets let Jesus clarify this verse, which He does in
John 17:15, "I pray not that thou take them out of the world,
but that thou should keep them from the evil."
Jesus clearly says__"not" to take them out__in John 17:15.
So, how can the_I will Keep thee from_of Rev. 3:10_ mean_
I will take thee out of_? As pre-trib teachers would have you
believe. Jesus does "not" contradict Himself !!__For the
Greek meaning of "Keep thee from"................ see note #2--->
God's wrath does not fall on us,"only those who had the mark
of the beast" (Rev 16:2). And those who "do not have the seal
of God" (Rev 9:4). Like the "144 thousand" of Rev. 7:3, we have
the seal of God._ See Eph.1:13 "....after you believed, you were
sealed......" And Eph.4:30 "......you are sealed unto the day of
redemption." There are several verses that clearly state, after we
accept Christ, we are sealed, (protected from God's wrath).
#4. Matthew 24:27
"For as the lighting cometh out of the east, and shineth even
unto the west; so shall also the coming of the son of man be."
Go down two verses, Matt.24:29 tells you "when" this will be:
"Immediately__ after the tribulation__ of those days...."
Now Matt.24:30 "....then shall appear the sign of the son of man
(Jesus)..." Now Matt.24:31, "..with the great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together (rapture) his elect...." Again the
same trumpet as in other verses, now back to Matt.24:26, Jesus
tells them not to believe people that tell you that He (Jesus) is
in a secret place (like a secret pre-trib rapture). Matt.24:27
is another verse that was clearly taken out of context, It teaches a
post tribulation rapture, at the second coming of Christ.
#5. Matthew 25:1-13
The parable of the "ten virgins"___ Here Jesus does not
talk about the "time" of His return, because He had just told
them a few minutes before about the time, (see the paragraph
before this one_Matt.24:29_definitely after the tribulation).
The Wedding Feast can only take place after the tribulation,
because the Resurrection doesn't happen until the Last day
Jesus said four times that the Resurrection is on the Last
Day (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54). _ Then the bridegroom (church)
goes into the wedding feast after the second coming of Christ,
and guess who else is at this Wedding Feast? 1 The Old
Testament saints. 2 The tribulation saints. 3 The prophets.
4 The 144 thousand new Christians. There would have to be
two wedding feasts__two resurrections__two second comings,
and two Last Days__ for the "pre-tribulation" rapture to work.
#6. Mark 13:6-37
In this entire chapter Jesus is talking about the events that
happen during the tribulation, and that they were _not_ to
look for Him until_after_ certain events happen first, then in
Mark 13:24, 25, 26, 27, (paraphrased) "...after the tribulation
of those days, then they shall see Him..." So Jesus again told
them He's coming back after the tribulation, making this a post-
tribulation rapture at the Second Coming of Christ.
#7. Luke 21:6-38
Basically this chapter is the same as the above chapter, where
Jesus returns__after__the tribulation, at the second coming of
Christ, except in v-36, He says, "....pray that you be accounted
worthy to escape all these things...." What things? All 21 plagues
that God uses to punish evil men; "...men which had the mark of
the beast..."(Rev.16:2), and "...those men which have not the seal
of God..." (Rev.9:4). What makes us worthy to escape all these
things? Accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour, and
being an overcomer, which includes_not_taking_the mark of the
beast. So, we will escape all these things, because we have the
seal of God (Eph.1:13, Eph.4:30, II Cor 1:22, and John 6:27). We
are protected (sealed) from God's wrath, like the 144K of Rev.7:4.
Greek rendering of "escape" put in the proper context...See Note 4----->
#8. II Peter 3:10
"...The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night."
Now let's let the Bible prove the Bible and go to I Thes. 5:2, where
the exact same words are used, "...the Day of the Lord so cometh
as a thief in the night." Then in I Thes.5:4, (paraphrased) "But
[we] are not in darkness that this day should overtake [us] as a
thief." Why? Because I Thes.5:5 "... [we] are children of the light."
So, we will know! (I inserted "we" for "you" because Peter and
Paul's letters were to the Gentiles (non Jews_"us").
#9. Revelation 22:12
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me." So,
when does He give out rewards? See Rev. 11:15, 18, "And the
7th angel sounded...[its time]...that thou give rewards...unto
the saints..."_It's after the 7th trump!!__At the end!!
Rewards are given out after the post-trib resurrection/
rapture, after the Second Coming of Christ.
[A]
Now, the (9) verse references listed above__was all__
that was presented to prove the "Pre-Trib" rapture
by the three pastors at this conference. You can see
that they were all taken out of context, or based
on assumptions. God was very angry with the
ten spies, who made Israel fear the Giants that were in
the land that God promised them (Num.13:1-2), and__They__
were afraid to go in (Num.13:31,32,33). We are doing the
same thing today, by fearing the "Giant" (Antichrist) _we add
"pre-trib" to God's word, without a single verse to prove it,
this is very dangerous, (see Rev. 22:18). It is not my intent to
belittle these three pastors, I am sure they are sincere Christians,
but if they can't come up with one single verse that specifically
places this event before the tribulation, who can? See note 5-->
[B]
It's really very simple, if it's not in God's word, it's not going to
happen. Again, I want to repeat that these nine scriptures were
all that was used to prove the "pre-trib" rapture that day, I was
there! The senior pastor of this church has read this article, (the
nine verses) and made a comment to me via Email, and he did not
question that these verses were all that were used.
[C]
Note: The "pre-trib" view is a relativity new doctrine, you will
not find pre-trib writings or documents in any church history until
about the year 1830. Edward Irving, (Catholic Apostolic Church)
and soon after, John Darby, (Plymouth Brethren) both of England,
were teaching the pre-tribulation rapture. _However, the most
important reason for the acceptance of this "pre-trib" rapture
view in the United States was the Scofield Reference Bible as well
as the Dake Study Bible. In the footnotes Scofield split the second
coming of Christ into two events:
1 Coming "for" the saints, 2 Coming "with" the saints (seven
years later)._To quote a well known Christian author on this topic:
Robert Cameron (1845-1922), "The Coming for, and the Coming
with, the saints, still persists, although it involves a manifest
contradiction, two Second Comings which is an absurdity."
(Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p.639).
[D]
Some may ask:_"what difference does it make if Christ returns
before the tribulation, or after?"_ There are sincere Christians on
both sides. However, the Bible says in I Thes.5:21, to "prove all
things."_And in II Tim.4:4,"And they shall turn away their ears
from the truth, and shall be turned into fables" (fiction). We
see this in the "Left Behind" book and movie, with cars & planes
crashing, etc. Millions are killed before the tribulation even starts,
when all these people still have/had a chance to be saved during
this time. The reality is the truth was Left Behind in the making
of this movie! Yet it sells well in the religious marketplaces. The
Pre Tribulation Rapture doctrine has become amusement for the
masses, a multi billion dollar business..............See note #6------>
[E]
If such a major event as the "pre-trib" Rapture is true, why
isn't it found in Old Testament prophecy?__or in Jesus's
own teachings?__ or His disciples?__or any of the New
Testament writers?__Jesus said in Mark 13:23,__ "I have
foretold you all things."__Jesus would have told us if
there was to be a pre-trib rapture.
[F]
Others may say: That, "the tribulation is only for the 144,000"
And then they go on to say that these are the people that God
uses in this time to bring people to Christ. This may be true, in
part, but look at Rev. 7:1,2,3,4 where God puts a seal on this
small group. And because of this seal, they are protected!!
The woman (Israel/144,000) is protected in the last 3 1/2 years
of the tribulation (Rev. 12:13-14). This, in turn, makes the serpent
(Satan) angry, so he goes after us in Rev.12:17, those who have
"the testimony of Jesus Christ." _Again, go back to Rev. 7:9,
"After this (the sealing of the 144000) I beheld, and look, a great
multitude... of all nations...". Now skip to Rev.7:13, who are
these people, and where did they come from?__ Rev.7:14,
"these are they that came out of great tribulation......" And
God just stated in Rev 12:13-14, that the woman (Israel/144000)
are protected. So, who do you think this great multitude is, that
has the testimony of Jesus Christ, if it's not us??__These are
martyred believers during the great tribulation (Rev.20:4).
So, there are untold millions, along with the 144,000 Israelites
that are in this period of time. To say this time is only for them to
deal with is a "cop out" and just another assumption and not
valid. They base this on Isaiah 45:4 where Israel is called God's
"elect" (KJV), so then in Matt. 24:31, when Jesus sends his angels
to gather His "elect" after the tribulation, that this event (the
second Coming of Christ) is only for the 144,000 who have to go
through the tribulation._After we (non Jews/Israelites) accept
Jesus Christ as our Savior, we become God's elect. I'll back up
this statement with Paul's letters to non Israelites: the Galatians
and the Colossians:
1 Gal.3:28-29 (paraphrased)"There is neither Jew or Greek,
you are all one in Christ...you also are Abraham's seed..."
2 Col 3:11-12, "....there is neither Greek or Jew....but Christ
is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the __Elect of God...."
3 I Peter 1:1-2, Peter writes a letter to different nationalities
and calls them the _"elect of God"_ because they have been
"washed in the blood of the Lamb"__ like we have been.
So, Israel_"and"_the church_"are"_God's elect!!
Jesus has one bride! He created the miracle of uniting Jew and
Gentile alike into one bride. Let's just "reason together", does it
make any sense that Jesus would rapture out a partial bride?
What parts would He take first? And then...what? pick up the
other parts later - with whatever the results the 144,000 are
able to accomplish during the last 3 1/2 years? Why would Jesus
remove only some?
And... if He was going to do this, don't you think He would have
told us? At least one verse stating that He was going to take some
out first? Jesus said in Mark 13:23, "I have foretold you all
things." He would have told us!! And do you suppose Jesus
would have the wedding feast with His "raptured" church (bride),
without the tribulation saints, the Old Testament saints,
the prophets or the 144,000?? Let's think about this, are we
really this special?_ Compared to these four other groups ???
Furthermore, Dan.11:33 says "And they that understand among
the people shall instruct many...." How are these new converts go-
ing to "instruct many" if they don't understand themselves? This
takes years of study, and how many Jews or Isralites in the world
today are studying end time prophecy?
[G]
I am going to add a few scriptures, (that were not mentioned at
this conference) that are also used to support the pre-tribulation
rapture, so that you will have a complete list of all the verses,
assumptions and analogies this "new" doctrine was based on:
1 Matt. 24:40, "...One shall be taken, and the other left."
Notice that Jesus made this statement just minutes after He had
told them "Immediately after the tribulation of those days.."
(Matt.24:29). That's when "one will be taken and and the other
left" Not seven years before! Put it in context!
[H]
2 The 'Noah' analogy__Many analogies are used by the Pre-
Trib Rapture teachers, for lack of scriptural proof. However, Noah
is their main one, so I will deal only with this one. Everyone is
aware of the fact that Noah warned the people that a flood is
coming and to repent, but _they refused to listen. The Pre-
Trib Rapture teachers say "that's like the rapture", so as Noah
was saved out of the flood, we are going to be "raptured" out of
the Tribulation. It's an analogy!!_An assumption!!
Did the flood come upon Noah, as well as the rest of the world
unawares? Let's read Gen.7:1 and Gen.7:4 and see. "And the Lord
said unto Noah...For in seven days, I will cause it to rain upon
the earth..." OK, so it does appear that Noah knew ahead of time
when the flood was going to come.....
...It was the world that did not know. Very important to notice
that Noah knew seven days before the exact day the flood would
start. And we will know seven years after the signing of the
covenant of Daniel 9:27, the Lord Jesus Christ will return.
Just for fun:
The "Post"-Trib 'Noah' analogy_We, the Post-Tribulation
Rapture teachers, are warning you that a flood is coming
(the Tribulation) , but you refuse to listen, just like in the
days of Noah.But Instead of a flood of water, it's a flood of Satanic
deception that started with a small wave in 1830 with the new
pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. Now this wave of deception has
covered the entire western world and has blinded us to the huge
wave that may soon be upon us. Because millions refuse to hear
the truth, many will fall in this dark time, and be deceived into
taking the "Mark of the Beast" and be forever lost. However,
post-trib rapture teachers don't have to use analogies to prove
their view. But even with two dozen solid scriptures, the people
still _refuse to listen!! "For the time will come (in the last days)
people will heap to themselfs teachers......and be turned aside to
fables" (2nd Tim.4:3).
[J]
3 Mark 13:32, is also used_ "But of that day and that hour
knoweth no man..." _Jesus told them this a few minutes after
telling them in Mark 13:24 "...in those days after that tribulation,
the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light..."
And goes on to say in Mark 13:28-29 that we will know this day is
close because next He says in Mark 13:30, that the generation
that sees these things (the tribulation events He just spoke of),
would (back to Mark 13:26-27), "...see the Son of man coming in
the clouds...to gather His elect from the...uttermost parts of the
earth..." Paul states in 1st Thes.5:4 "we are not in darkness that
this day will come upon us as a thief. "Why? Because, in the next
verse (1st Thes.5:5), "we are children of the light..." However,
right now no one knows, but when the covenant of Daniel 9:27 is
signed, we will know!!__More on the above see note #10---->
[K]
Some people ask me, "why is it that the vast majority of
Christians believe in the "pre-trib"?_When Jesus came to the
earth the first time, the vast majority of the religious people
(the church) of that time, rejected him, even after many Old
Testament prophets foretold of this event. But they did not want
a suffering Messiah, they wanted a conquering king. In this
case the vast majority was wrong!! Now, today, we want the
Messiah to take us out before a certain event, not after!! But,
guess what, we don't get to choose. He only comes to the earth
two times (Heb 9:28). Once as a suffering Messiah, and then as a
conquering KING at the Second Coming of Christ.
[L]
We soon may be entering the last seven years of this age, the 70th
week of Daniel. We will not be_ 'in the balcony of heaven'_ (as
our end time preachers would have us believe) but we need not
fear, God is with us. Jesus said "..I will build my church; and
the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt 16:18)
[M]
No mater what view we hold, we still need to accept each other as
Christians. Those of us that hold to the post-tribulation rapture
view, should not be thought of as troublemakers, we are only
concerned that millions may fall during this time, a time when we
(the church) can be used by God. "..The people that do know their
God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that understand
among the people shall instruct many..." (Daniel 11:32-33)
And, then we can be overcomers as in Rev. 7:9,13,14 "...a great
multitude, which no man could number, of all nations.."
v-13 ( paraphrased) "...who are these people and where did
they come from?"__ Then v-14, "....these are they which
came out of great tribulation, and washed their robes, and
made them white in the Blood of the Lamb."
Jesus is coming, there is no denying that. When He is coming has
been up for debate ever since He left. I've tried my best to present
to you the Truth. Whether you accept it or not is totally up to you.
Post Script......Important to read brief quotes from the early
church fathers on what they believed and taught on the Second
Coming of Christ, and the Antichrist. Most of these apostles and
teachers lifespan overlapped each other from 30AD to 1900:
Early Church Fathers http://earlychurchbelief.blogspot.com/
Very brief answers on the Eternal Security Doctrine (OSAS):
Eternal Security ? http://osas-question.blogspot.com/
The Antichrist empire that will center in the middle east is the:
Endtime Beast Empire http://endtimebeast.blogspot.com/
Where is Mystery Babylon, and who is the Woman on the Beast?
Woman on...Scarlet Beast http://ancient-harlot.blogspot.com/
The first 4 of God's 7-angel's that execute the Seal, Trump,
and Vial plagues are the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse"
http://4horsemen4.blogspot.com/
Questions?...Roger Armstrong.... lassenview@gmail.com
(No relation or connection to H.W. Armstrong....or his church).
Read, "GLORY TRAIN"-A Play, by Dr. Gavin Finley. A drama
on a endtime theme, http://endtimepilgrim.org/glorytrain.htm
